Disdain for bishops and higher ups

[hostile]

What if he's a derm resident or a pathology resident?

I thought about that and said "most" residencies. Still, there is a large time commitment, regardless of the specialty. I guess with some the evening hours and weekend hours would be more predictable.

I remember being called to the ER on a weekend to see a patient who had developed an infection in his finger after undergoing a punch biopsy by a dermatologist earlier in the week. The dermatologist seemed genuinely baffled as to why I would ask the ER to call him and take care of his complication.

[TXJason]

I have relocated many times because of my career and have ended up as a counselor in three different bishoprics. If wards were allowed to vote for counselors, I don't think I would have ever received one vote because I am pretty irreverant and have an innapropriate sense of humor. I am currently serving as a Ward Clerk and have also served as an executive secretary.

With that said, I have never met a Bishop who actually wanted the calling. Most are extremely humble men who are trying their best. Are they perfect? Of course not. But they are good men trying their best.

I did run across one egotistical one when I lived in Florida, but he wasnt my Bishop. I was at a pinewood derby where I watched him tell a 9 year old boy that if he touched a car, he would break his fingers.

[jay santos]

Only for those whose strength depends on perception.

That's what a sign is.

[jay santos]

With that said, I have never met a Bishop who actually wanted the calling.

I put a qualifier on that, "in places where the church is strong". Maybe that's just Utah and Idaho. Or maybe it's wards with at least moderate average incomes (because I know even in Utah County the number of possible bishop candidates varies quite a lot--mostly depending on the income level of the neighborhood). Basically any area where you have at least 20 active TR holding, married, employed men age 35-65. In those areas, you don't get get called as bishop unless you've campaigned at least a little. Which as DDD said maybe is better than having a bishop that doesn't want it.

[Jacob]

My bishop is a Ute, his kid makes comments in priesthood meeting after BYU loses and Utah wins, and he wears a big fat Utah ring on his finger that says football. Apparently he played or something.

So I have plenty of reasons for disdain.

Additionally, I think he is a little over the top on showing emotion. I am annoyed by his hyper-spirituality. He is trying to force us to stand up when a woman enters the room. And his kids are home-schooled.

But, all I can say about the guy is that he seems very nice, is dedicated to his religion and his calling, and I respect him greatly for that. I can't imagine why anyone would hold some sort of disdain for him--other than for his bad haircut.

[Pheidippides]

I hate statements like this.

I do too. It's a very complicated issue.

I have not kept it a secret on here that I struggle with the narrow-mindedness (sometimes) and corporate culture (almost always) that pervades the church. I don't struggle all that much doctrinally, but I find us to be more corporate than the corporation I work for.

This last Sunday I had a bad experience at Stake Conference. Two people who I actively dislike because of their fakeness and their arrogance were called to be on the High Council. They are both naive and unintelligent, as well as not understanding of other viewpoints. At the same time, I don't feel like there is much of a place in my local congregation for people like me in terms of viewpoint, and I get tired of keeping my mouth shut in meetings when historical inaccuracies are preached or cultural nonsense is promulgated as doctrinal truth. I don't get much out of Sacrament Meetings anymore, since we only mention Christ when we close our prayers.

So why don't I just leave?

I don't leave because staying makes me a better person. I don't leave because I want to give my kids faith as well. I don't leave because for every jackass on the high council there are five good honest people that, whatever their faults, are honestly trying to be Christlike in their life. I don't leave because I have a cultural bond after some 30 plus years. I don't leave because of spiritual experiences I have had that give me faith and hope to counter the doubt and scorn.

And most of all, I don't leave because if the church is to change in the way I hope it needs people like me to stick around and quietly and patiently help it move in that direction.

[LA Ute]

I do too. It's a very complicated issue.

I have not kept it a secret on here that I struggle with the narrow-mindedness (sometimes) and corporate culture (almost always) that pervades the church. I don't struggle all that much doctrinally, but I find us to be more corporate than the corporation I work for.

This last Sunday I had a bad experience at Stake Conference. Two people who I actively dislike because of their fakeness and their arrogance were called to be on the High Council. They are both naive and unintelligent, as well as not understanding of other viewpoints. At the same time, I don't feel like there is much of a place in my local congregation for people like me in terms of viewpoint, and I get tired of keeping my mouth shut in meetings when historical inaccuracies are preached or cultural nonsense is promulgated as doctrinal truth. I don't get much out of Sacrament Meetings anymore, since we only mention Christ when we close our prayers.

So why don't I just leave?

I don't leave because staying makes me a better person. I don't leave because I want to give my kids faith as well. I don't leave because for every jackass on the high council there are five good honest people that, whatever their faults, are honestly trying to be Christlike in their life. I don't leave because I have a cultural bond after some 30 plus years. I don't leave because of spiritual experiences I have had that give me faith and hope to counter the doubt and scorn.

And most of all, I don't leave because if the church is to change in the way I hope it needs people like me to stick around and quietly and patiently help it move in that direction.

You forgot to mention that if you leave I will kick your butt.

[Jacob]

I do too. It's a very complicated issue.

I have not kept it a secret on here that I struggle with the narrow-mindedness (sometimes) and corporate culture (almost always) that pervades the church. I don't struggle all that much doctrinally, but I find us to be more corporate than the corporation I work for.

This last Sunday I had a bad experience at Stake Conference. Two people who I actively dislike because of their fakeness and their arrogance were called to be on the High Council. They are both naive and unintelligent, as well as not understanding of other viewpoints. At the same time, I don't feel like there is much of a place in my local congregation for people like me in terms of viewpoint, and I get tired of keeping my mouth shut in meetings when historical inaccuracies are preached or cultural nonsense is promulgated as doctrinal truth. I don't get much out of Sacrament Meetings anymore, since we only mention Christ when we close our prayers.

So why don't I just leave?

I don't leave because staying makes me a better person. I don't leave because I want to give my kids faith as well. I don't leave because for every jackass on the high council there are five good honest people that, whatever their faults, are honestly trying to be Christlike in their life. I don't leave because I have a cultural bond after some 30 plus years. I don't leave because of spiritual experiences I have had that give me faith and hope to counter the doubt and scorn.

And most of all, I don't leave because if the church is to change in the way I hope it needs people like me to stick around and quietly and patiently help it move in that direction.

Well put. But I don't begrudge the question that elicited the response. For people who have been raised in the church and have always believed ti is not easy to see the other viewpoint. They have been taught that truth is a pretty black and white issue. It's true or false. Its us or them. We're right, everyone else is wrong. I completely understand the lack of understanding. I'd say I wouldn't have understood it many years ago. Still don't to some extent.

[mUUser]

I do too. It's a very complicated issue.

I have not kept it a secret on here that I struggle with the narrow-mindedness (sometimes) and corporate culture (almost always) that pervades the church. I don't struggle all that much doctrinally, but I find us to be more corporate than the corporation I work for.

This last Sunday I had a bad experience at Stake Conference. Two people who I actively dislike because of their fakeness and their arrogance were called to be on the High Council. They are both naive and unintelligent, as well as not understanding of other viewpoints. At the same time, I don't feel like there is much of a place in my local congregation for people like me in terms of viewpoint, and I get tired of keeping my mouth shut in meetings when historical inaccuracies are preached or cultural nonsense is promulgated as doctrinal truth. I don't get much out of Sacrament Meetings anymore, since we only mention Christ when we close our prayers.

So why don't I just leave?

I don't leave because staying makes me a better person. I don't leave because I want to give my kids faith as well. I don't leave because for every jackass on the high council there are five good honest people that, whatever their faults, are honestly trying to be Christlike in their life. I don't leave because I have a cultural bond after some 30 plus years. I don't leave because of spiritual experiences I have had that give me faith and hope to counter the doubt and scorn.

And most of all, I don't leave because if the church is to change in the way I hope it needs people like me to stick around and quietly and patiently help it move in that direction.

Missed this one the first time around. Well thought out post. Thank you.

[Pheidippides]

You forgot to mention that if you leave I will kick your butt.

Only if you can catch me, old man!

Seriously, though, it's this place that helps me out the most (maybe second to my wife). Here, not only can I share my concerns, I can find like minded people and not so like minded people who appreciate my view point, even if they don't agree with it. It gives me strength when I go back to feeling like Wonko the Sane trying to construct my own version of Outside the Asylum. Some of you know what I mean. The rest of you need to read more.

[Art Vandelay]

I put a qualifier on that, "in places where the church is strong". Maybe that's just Utah and Idaho. Or maybe it's wards with at least moderate average incomes (because I know even in Utah County the number of possible bishop candidates varies quite a lot--mostly depending on the income level of the neighborhood). Basically any area where you have at least 20 active TR holding, married, employed men age 35-65. In those areas, you don't get get called as bishop unless you've campaigned at least a little. Which as DDD said maybe is better than having a bishop that doesn't want it.

I have really enjoyed this thread, I particularly like nikuman's comments above, but the point you made above is puzzling to me Jay, it seem very Utah-centric.

Other than 3 years after my mission I've never lived in the Beehive state, so I don't claim to know what the church is like there. However, in my experience men want to be bishop if they are young and somewhat naive. My brother was a bishop at 31, so in my early 20's I thought it would cool to be a bishop someday. When I was 31 my life was crazy busy with work, kids and sports. I also had been an EQP, WML and YMP, thus spent enough time in PEC and other meetings to realize I no longer coveted being the man behind the desk. At 34 I was called to by 1st counselor to one of the best men I've ever known. He was barely 40 and was called to serve as a bishop for the second time. I figured I would serve with him for 4 or 5 years due my time then be released back to the wild. He unexpectedly was reassigned by CES and less than 10 months later I was called be bishop. I won't feign false humility and say it was unexpected- once I knew he was moving I realized there was a good chance it might happen (my wife started having dreams 3 or 4 months before we knew he was moving that I was going to be called. I mocked her for being a visionary woman and told her to fix her bow and go get me dinner...). After I was extended the call I had a very strong confirmation that this was what I should be doing at this point in my life.

As per Google maps I live 635 from Temple Square. The new church website is awesome and allows me to see that my ward statistics are as follows.

• Ward size: 648. We had 597 in attendance for the primary program this last Sunday.
• Children and Infants: 204
• Elders: 105
• HP: 35
• Prospective Elders: 44
• Endowed Members: 373
• Endowed with Recommend: 323

I agree with what you said early to have this be a more theoretical discussion than personal. My point is, I think you are making way too generalized statements and ones that do not match to what my life experiences have been.

[KillerDog]

I think Azurri is asking a good question that needs answering. Even if the experience is more negative than positive or costs more than you receive, I believe people don't leave because the costs of leaving are higher than the costs of staying. It doesn't matter if your life is not enriched by church membership. What matters is, what is my cost to stay and what is my cost to leave. For most Mormons who were very active through a certain age, the cost of leaving is prohibitive. We know the cost because we have helped enforce it on others. Thus, you have people like me. Non-believer that everyone thinks is a believer. A true hypocrite whose actions and beliefs don't coincide. My professed beliefs correspond to my actions but my true beliefs would not include religion.

[LA Ute]

Only if you can catch me, old man!

You are forgetting that old age and cunning usually triumphs over youth and strength.

[Pheidippides]

You are forgetting that old age and cunning usually triumphs over youth and strength.

I'm not talking metaphorically. I'm talking about raw speed. Better recruit Piney to your cause!

[BigFatMeanie]

I put a qualifier on that, "in places where the church is strong". Maybe that's just Utah and Idaho. Or maybe it's wards with at least moderate average incomes (because I know even in Utah County the number of possible bishop candidates varies quite a lot--mostly depending on the income level of the neighborhood). Basically any area where you have at least 20 active TR holding, married, employed men age 35-65. In those areas, you don't get get called as bishop unless you've campaigned at least a little. Which as DDD said maybe is better than having a bishop that doesn't want it.

What are some campaign techniques you've observed?