"The Proper Prayer Language"

[Commando]

I love god's children-- even his self-appointed ministers whom I feel sound corny or, as I put it so objectionably, "like a dipshit." Your offense was not intended.

[creekster]

As to the original topic, it is true, as many of you have observed and has occurred to many missionaries serving in countries using Latin languages, that the 'familiar' or 'informal' form of 'you' is used in prayer in those languages and thus it seems that the request here not only seems old school but also seems to be based on bassackwards evidence.

A couple of thoughts: First, do any of you here really think that this language issue has escaped the notice of the GAs? Seriously? A member of the first presidency is a native German speaker for cryin' out loud! You think that it hasn't, just possibly, occurred to more than one GA over the years? It reminds me of my after dinner speaking experience (I have related this more than once; we thought we would burp as our entry in an after dinner speaking contest only to find that this stunt has been pulled by every freshman class for the last 25+ years or more before us). IOW, they know and comments here suggesting this is something they have stumbled across that the GAs haven't heard or considered are sort of amusing.

Second, I am not sure I agree with everyone on the language issue. I speak a little French and have lived in two French speaking countries and visited several others (only one for a mission) and while it is true the tu/toi form is used for children, animals, family and God, it is not true that it feels the same when used in those different ways. When praying in French tu-toi-ing God does not feel like tu-toi-ing a child. It is different. It signifies a different relationship. It signifies, at least to my ears, that we are in special and familial relationship with our Heavenly Father. This isn't necessarily less formal, it is just different.

Third, I think the goal is to make sure we keep our relationship with God different than our relationship with others. English has lost the tu-toi form. Gone. So how do we, like other languages, keep that special relationship feeling when we pray? We use the thee/thou form and it establishes that special relationship. So special we use unique words for it.

Fourth, The point, in my mind, is to make sure we appreciate and establish by action the sacred and unique relationship we have with God. I agree that God doesn't care at all, really, what words we choose as long as our heart is in the right place. But my guess is that this approach is encouraged in order to assist us in making a distinction between our daily conversations and God, so that we treat Him with respect and approach Him with reverence and with a mindset not of the world. To distinguish between the sacred and the profane, if you will. It is an aid to the weakest among us, not a necessary condition of eternal happiness.

As for me, I have never been that fond of the thee/thou form, and when younger I used to argue against it often. As I have grayed, however, I have found its encouragement more understandable even if I, personally, tend not to use it in English very often.

[Jacob]

A couple of thoughts: First, do any of you here really think that this language issue has escaped the notice of the GAs? Seriously? A member of the first presidency is a native German speaker for cryin' out loud! You think that it hasn't, just possibly, occurred to more than one GA over the years? It reminds me of my after dinner speaking experience (I have related this more than once; we thought we would burp as our entry in an after dinner speaking contest only to find that this stunt has been pulled by every freshman class for the last 25+ years or more before us). IOW, they know and comments here suggesting this is something they have stumbled across that the GAs haven't heard or considered are sort of amusing.

What makes you think people were claiming that the GAs weren't aware of this? Usually in their speeches on the subject they mention it briefly. My feeling that thee/thou is unimportant is in spite of, not in response to, statements by the GAs. It's sort of amusing that you would suggest the the posters here haven't considered that GAs are smart enough to realize this.

[creekster]

What makes you think people were claiming that the GAs weren't aware of this? Usually in their speeches on the subject they mention it briefly. My feeling that thee/thou is unimportant is in spite of, not in response to, statements by the GAs. It's sort of amusing that you would suggest the the posters here haven't considered that GAs are smart enough to realize this.

If they have then I was wrong. No one stated it directly. It just seemed that was the implication. IOW, they explained how stupid the church was for promoting this notion in light of the meaning in languages that still employ this form. But I could be wrong about the thinking of those here. Btw, I suspect you really think that way despite, as opposed to in spite of, the church. You don't seem that mean spirited to me.

[Jacob]

Btw, I suspect you really think that way despite, as opposed to in spite of, the church. You don't seem that mean spirited to me.

Nope. I meant "in spite of." I don't know what dictionary you use, but those mean the same thing in my world. It doesn't mean "out of spite" and isn't mean spirited.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/in_spite_of

[creekster]

Nope. I meant "in spite of." I don't know what dictionary you use, but those mean the same thing in my world. It doesn't mean "out of spite" and isn't mean spirited.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/in_spite_of

Maybe I am wrong again. Wouldnt be the first time.

[Spicy McHaggis]

The 'proper language for prayer' is just one of the weird customs they try to keep up, like not being able to pass/take the sacrament left handed and olive oil annointings.

All the thees & thous are just the common language from King James English, right? I don't know that is shows any more respect than current english.

[UtahDan]

All the thees & thous are just the common language from King James English, right? I don't know that is shows any more respect than current english.

Oh I don't know about that. The Lord speaks early 17th century English. Haven't you read the D&C?

[myboynoah]

As to the original topic, it is true, as many of you have observed and has occurred to many missionaries serving in countries using Latin languages, that the 'familiar' or 'informal' form of 'you' is used in prayer in those languages and thus it seems that the request here not only seems old school but also seems to be based on bassackwards evidence.

A couple of thoughts: First, do any of you here really think that this language issue has escaped the notice of the GAs? Seriously? A member of the first presidency is a native German speaker for cryin' out loud! You think that it hasn't, just possibly, occurred to more than one GA over the years? It reminds me of my after dinner speaking experience (I have related this more than once; we thought we would burp as our entry in an after dinner speaking contest only to find that this stunt has been pulled by every freshman class for the last 25+ years or more before us). IOW, they know and comments here suggesting this is something they have stumbled across that the GAs haven't heard or considered are sort of amusing.

Second, I am not sure I agree with everyone on the language issue. I speak a little French and have lived in two French speaking countries and visited several others (only one for a mission) and while it is true the tu/toi form is used for children, animals, family and God, it is not true that it feels the same when used in those different ways. When praying in French tu-toi-ing God does not feel like tu-toi-ing a child. It is different. It signifies a different relationship. It signifies, at least to my ears, that we are in special and familial relationship with our Heavenly Father. This isn't necessarily less formal, it is just different.

Third, I think the goal is to make sure we keep our relationship with God different than our relationship with others. English has lost the tu-toi form. Gone. So how do we, like other languages, keep that special relationship feeling when we pray? We use the thee/thou form and it establishes that special relationship. So special we use unique words for it.

Fourth, The point, in my mind, is to make sure we appreciate and establish by action the sacred and unique relationship we have with God. I agree that God doesn't care at all, really, what words we choose as long as our heart is in the right place. But my guess is that this approach is encouraged in order to assist us in making a distinction between our daily conversations and God, so that we treat Him with respect and approach Him with reverence and with a mindset not of the world. To distinguish between the sacred and the profane, if you will. It is an aid to the weakest among us, not a necessary condition of eternal happiness.

As for me, I have never been that fond of the thee/thou form, and when younger I used to argue against it often. As I have grayed, however, I have found its encouragement more understandable even if I, personally, tend not to use it in English very often.

As always, you are a very wise ape.

[Mrs. Funk]

As to the original topic, it is true, as many of you have observed and has occurred to many missionaries serving in countries using Latin languages, that the 'familiar' or 'informal' form of 'you' is used in prayer in those languages and thus it seems that the request here not only seems old school but also seems to be based on bassackwards evidence.

A couple of thoughts: First, do any of you here really think that this language issue has escaped the notice of the GAs? Seriously? A member of the first presidency is a native German speaker for cryin' out loud! You think that it hasn't, just possibly, occurred to more than one GA over the years? It reminds me of my after dinner speaking experience (I have related this more than once; we thought we would burp as our entry in an after dinner speaking contest only to find that this stunt has been pulled by every freshman class for the last 25+ years or more before us). IOW, they know and comments here suggesting this is something they have stumbled across that the GAs haven't heard or considered are sort of amusing.

Second, I am not sure I agree with everyone on the language issue. I speak a little French and have lived in two French speaking countries and visited several others (only one for a mission) and while it is true the tu/toi form is used for children, animals, family and God, it is not true that it feels the same when used in those different ways. When praying in French tu-toi-ing God does not feel like tu-toi-ing a child. It is different. It signifies a different relationship. It signifies, at least to my ears, that we are in special and familial relationship with our Heavenly Father. This isn't necessarily less formal, it is just different.

Third, I think the goal is to make sure we keep our relationship with God different than our relationship with others. English has lost the tu-toi form. Gone. So how do we, like other languages, keep that special relationship feeling when we pray? We use the thee/thou form and it establishes that special relationship. So special we use unique words for it.

Fourth, The point, in my mind, is to make sure we appreciate and establish by action the sacred and unique relationship we have with God. I agree that God doesn't care at all, really, what words we choose as long as our heart is in the right place. But my guess is that this approach is encouraged in order to assist us in making a distinction between our daily conversations and God, so that we treat Him with respect and approach Him with reverence and with a mindset not of the world. To distinguish between the sacred and the profane, if you will. It is an aid to the weakest among us, not a necessary condition of eternal happiness.

As for me, I have never been that fond of the thee/thou form, and when younger I used to argue against it often. As I have grayed, however, I have found its encouragement more understandable even if I, personally, tend not to use it in English very often.

Good points, monkey man.

And again, I suggest reading Elder Oaks' "The Language of Prayer" talk from the April 1993 conference.

[DrumNFeather]

I've heard several people use the phrase "hallowed be thy name" shortly after beginning a prayer, which is neither bothersome or spectacular, just interesting.

[statman]

It is different. It signifies a different relationship.

That I can agree with - it is different.

In German it is still a bit strange to hear someone speaking in the informal in a public setting - especially in the informal singular. But it's definitely less strange to hear informal speech now than previously. Things are getting less and less formal all the time - way more informal speech is used in the work place now than a generation ago. Students have generally used informal speech with peers at least since the sixties. But when they entered the workforce, all new relationships started formally. It would've bordered on the unthinkable to be 'per du' with someone you only knew through work. Not anymore.

Nowadays, you might even hear someone address a group in the workforce using the informal plural - 'ihr.' But someone speaking in front of a group using informal singular is odd no matter how you slice it. Really the only time that would be done is in prayer...

One thing that Germans aren't prepared to hear in the workplace is their local dialects - at least in a professional office. I speak much better dialect than 'High German." I can actually pass myself off pretty well as a native-speaker if I stick to Schwaebisch. I'd rather people think I was a bit of an oddity with a strong command of the German language than just an American guy with a decent vocabulary, and a good accent who made a lot of grammatical errors.

[Brian]

I understand that Abba means something akin to 'Daddy' or 'Papa'.

[pelagius]

I understand that Abba means something akin to 'Daddy' or 'Papa'.

This seems to be common in the church and has been common outside the church too. Apparently, it was advanced by Joachim Jeremias who was a prominent scholar in the middle part of the 20 century. But I think more modern scholarship generally reject this hypothesis in terms of the meaning of Abba as used by Jesus in the New Testament. Certainly, I am no expert nor should I by relied on as someone who has a good sense for academic Biblical consensus but I will try to summarize it anyways. J Barr explains the following in "Abba Ins't Daddy":

It is fair to say that 'abba in Jesus' time belonged to a familiar or colloquial register of language, as distinct from more formal and ceremonious usage, though it would be unwise, in view of the usage of the Targum, to press this too far. But in any case it was not a childish expression comparable with 'Daddy': it was more solemn, responsible, adult address to a Father.

J. Barr, “‘Abba’ Isn’t ‘Daddy’,” Journal of Theological Studies 39 (1988): 28-47.

Also see Kevin Barney's post about this from 2007 (which is when I become aware of the article):

http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/02/08/whos-your-daddy/

[LA Ute]

This seems to be common in the church and has been common outside the church too. Apparently, it was advanced by Joachim Jeremias who was a prominent scholar in the middle part of the 20 century. But I think more modern scholarship generally reject this hypothesis in terms of the meaning of Abba as used by the New Testament writers. Certainly, I am no expert nor should I by relied on as someone who has a good sense for academic Biblical consensus but I will try to summarize it anyways. J Barr argues the following in "Abba Ins't Daddy":




Also see Kevin Barney's post about this from 2007 (which is when I become aware of the article):

http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/02/08/whos-your-daddy/

I always thought "abba" was akin to the familiar form as it is used in the Romance languages (tú, in Spanish), sort of like being on a first-name basis. "Daddy" is too colloquial. Maybe "papa?" But I concede I know nothing about this.