"The Proper Prayer Language"

[TheBYUGuy]

I was asked by the EQP last night to give a lesson in a couple of weeks that would include discussion of the proper language of prayer--specifically that we're supposed to use "Thee/Thou, Thy, Thine" rather than "You, Your, Yours" to address God. My EQP said that many of the elders have gotten too casual with their prayers and that this is an important topic for us to address.

I admit that this is a little difficult for me. For as long as I can remember, I've always used "proper language" when praying, but I hardly notice when other people use different language. The way other people pray just isn't that big of a deal to me (maybe it should be--I don't know). At the same time, I'd like to respect the EQP's wishes and say something worthwhile.

To me, the big issue is that we understand our relationship with God and work to cultivate it, and that we humble ourselves and pray to Him (is there a more respectful way to say "Him"? Maybe "Thim"?). I'm sure there have been many prayers using "improper language" that are more sincere, heartfelt, and meaningful than the majority of those that use "proper language".

Any thoughts on the topic or how I could pull it together into something meaningful?


Note: I also have the option of directly addressing the EQP's concern with a few minutes of "instruction" and then teaching something completely different for the rest of the 30 minutes.

[fresca]

Teach in a different language...

In german there are two ways to talk to people. The formal and the familiar. Formal is when talking with superiors and is a sign of respect of position. Familiar is when talking with personal friends and family. They also use the familiar in prayer.

In English, we use the formal almost always: You, Yours, etc... IIRC - Thou, thine (the english familiar) was a more intimate pronoun (historically). Also, it's everywhere in the scriptures. I'd say you're correct to focus on the relationship instead of the actual words. My point with the german is that this lesson would be a moot point over there. It's like the obsession over priesthood holders wearing a white shirt to church. Too many are focused on the outward appearance than the inner. In my opinion, focusing on the trivialities is distracting and takes away from the heart of the matter.

[Mrs. Funk]

For reference, I would check out Elder Oaks' talk "The Language of Prayer." If you search the Ensign for "the language of prayer" in quotations, it's the first hit. May 1993 edition of the Ensign.

[Pheidippides]

I was asked by the EQP last night to give a lesson in a couple of weeks that would include discussion of the proper language of prayer--specifically that we're supposed to use "Thee/Thou, Thy, Thine" rather than "You, Your, Yours" to address God. My EQP said that many of the elders have gotten too casual with their prayers and that this is an important topic for us to address.

I admit that this is a little difficult for me. For as long as I can remember, I've always used "proper language" when praying, but I hardly notice when other people use different language. The way other people pray just isn't that big of a deal to me (maybe it should be--I don't know). At the same time, I'd like to respect the EQP's wishes and say something worthwhile.

To me, the big issue is that we understand our relationship with God and work to cultivate it, and that we humble ourselves and pray to Him (is there a more respectful way to say "Him"? Maybe "Thim"?). I'm sure there have been many prayers using "improper language" that are more sincere, heartfelt, and meaningful than the majority of those that use "proper language".

Any thoughts on the topic or how I could pull it together into something meaningful?


Note: I also have the option of directly addressing the EQP's concern with a few minutes of "instruction" and then teaching something completely different for the rest of the 30 minutes.

I would have a hard time teaching this also. I would have perhaps politely declined, actually.

My best prayers, my most sincere and communicative ones, come when I forget pseudo-formal language (nice to see you, fresca, even if that drink is vile) and just pray. This may sound odd to some, as in Japanese I tend to go bonkers with the honorifics.

[NorthwestUteFan]

One Sunday when I was about 14, a lady in the ward walked up to the pulpit to give the closing prayer.

Into the microphone, she said (quoting Matthew 6:5-13):

"...And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.


But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

After this manner therefore pray ye: 'Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name'..."

and recited The Lord's Prayer in its entirety. Yup, that was the entire benediction.

At the time I thought she was a little crazy but in retrospect it certainly was a teaching moment.

Looking back at it now a few decades later, it burns in my memory. As such I look to avoid the 'vain repetitions', etc.

[Jacob]

I was asked by the EQP last night to give a lesson in a couple of weeks that would include discussion of the proper language of prayer--specifically that we're supposed to use "Thee/Thou, Thy, Thine" rather than "You, Your, Yours" to address God. My EQP said that many of the elders have gotten too casual with their prayers and that this is an important topic for us to address.

I admit that this is a little difficult for me. For as long as I can remember, I've always used "proper language" when praying, but I hardly notice when other people use different language. The way other people pray just isn't that big of a deal to me (maybe it should be--I don't know). At the same time, I'd like to respect the EQP's wishes and say something worthwhile.

To me, the big issue is that we understand our relationship with God and work to cultivate it, and that we humble ourselves and pray to Him (is there a more respectful way to say "Him"? Maybe "Thim"?). I'm sure there have been many prayers using "improper language" that are more sincere, heartfelt, and meaningful than the majority of those that use "proper language".

Any thoughts on the topic or how I could pull it together into something meaningful?


Note: I also have the option of directly addressing the EQP's concern with a few minutes of "instruction" and then teaching something completely different for the rest of the 30 minutes.

I would refuse to teach that lesson. Last time it was brought up, I voiced my opinion that we were placing too much emphasis on it. I further expressed my view that we may very well have it completely backwards and we shouldn't use the formal language. Finally, I declared that I was annoyed by listening to all the members use the terms improperly and use poor grammar in their prayers. Would our Father rather hear good grammar and properly structured sentences, or the formalities of a bygone mode of speech?

If the EQP really wanted me to teach the lesson, I would teach it in my own way, stressing that saying thee and thou is unimportant, in my view.

[jay santos]

My understanding is the original Greek as well as the context of thee and thou in the time period it was translated was that they were intimate terms and don't have the same context we see them as, as far as being formal and rather unintimate.

I was raised to use "proper" prayer language but as an adult, I have consciously shifted to use you and your instead of thee and thine. I feel gypped because I think it creates an unnecessary feeling of distance between God and the prayer giver. I still slip up and use thee and thou, usually in public settings. I teach my kids to use you and your.

[Commando]

I teach my kids to use you and your.

:igiveup:

[wuapinmon]

I was asked by the EQP last night to give a lesson in a couple of weeks that would include discussion of the proper language of prayer--specifically that we're supposed to use "Thee/Thou, Thy, Thine" rather than "You, Your, Yours" to address God. My EQP said that many of the elders have gotten too casual with their prayers and that this is an important topic for us to address.

I admit that this is a little difficult for me. For as long as I can remember, I've always used "proper language" when praying, but I hardly notice when other people use different language. The way other people pray just isn't that big of a deal to me (maybe it should be--I don't know). At the same time, I'd like to respect the EQP's wishes and say something worthwhile.

To me, the big issue is that we understand our relationship with God and work to cultivate it, and that we humble ourselves and pray to Him (is there a more respectful way to say "Him"? Maybe "Thim"?). I'm sure there have been many prayers using "improper language" that are more sincere, heartfelt, and meaningful than the majority of those that use "proper language".

Any thoughts on the topic or how I could pull it together into something meaningful?


Note: I also have the option of directly addressing the EQP's concern with a few minutes of "instruction" and then teaching something completely different for the rest of the 30 minutes.

"Thee, thou, etc." are second-person pronouns that originally were "informal" hinting at the special relationship with the Divine as intimate, like family, like a Heavenly Father.

In Spanish, you would never ever ever pray to God using the Ud., 3rd person singular formal pronoun. God is your friend, and you use the informal "Tú" with him.

Thou and thee were usually used in intimate settings, so their original usage makes sense, but slowly the objective you came into use from "ye," and the thous and thee have died out for the most part. The anachronistic modern usage in Mormonism to denote solemnity is actually at odds with the original meaning. The Normans brought their tradition of the "Royal We" (God and I, not unlike the Rastas' "I and I") with them, and therefore it became the norm to use the plural pronoun 'you' when addressing the king, "Your Majesty" in its modern rendering. This 'politeness' gradually became the norm, while the intimate and singular "thou" faded into relative obscurity were it not for the KJV's usage of Tyndale's translation (and hope to make people feel that religion was less formal and more intimate) as the basis of its translation. Tyndale was burned at the stake, by the way.

The Lord employs both:
http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/68/4
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/matt/26

[Commando]

My sister was recently married to a baptist gentleman by way of a baptist minister who sounded like a complete dipshit in his invocation which went something like "Lord, we love you Lord and Lord bless us Lord with your awesomeness this day Lord like when you died on the cross, Lord."

That kind of "intimacy" (not to mention the vain use of the word Lord) smacks of disrespect, casualness, lack of humility, and disregard for the sacredness of Diety that doesn't sit right with me. Oh-- it also sounds super redneck. Go ahead and do it till the cows come home at home or in your personal prayers, but when in public I would urge others to try not to chit-chat with the Lord.

[wuapinmon]

My sister was recently married to a baptist gentleman by way of a baptist minister who sounded like a complete dipshit in his invocation which went something like "Lord, we love you Lord and Lord bless us Lord with your awesomeness this day Lord like when you died on the cross, Lord."

That kind of "intimacy" (not to mention the vain use of the word Lord) smacks of disrespect, casualness, lack of humility, and disregard for the sacredness of Diety that doesn't sit right with me. Oh-- it also sounds super redneck. Go ahead and do it till the cows come home at home or in your personal prayers, but when in public I would urge others to try not to chit-chat with the Lord.

I could analyze your writing and speech for inaccuracies, anachronisms, and regional variations too. Unfortunately, I don't have the time, but it doesn't really matter. Your usual tone is so caustic and off-putting that it lets anyone know, rather quickly, that you're a dipshit without a deep textual analysis.

[Commando]

I could analyze your writing and speech for inaccuracies, anachronisms, and regional variations too. Unfortunately, I don't have the time, but it doesn't really matter. Your usual tone is so caustic and off-putting that it lets anyone know, rather quickly, that you're a dipshit without a deep textual analysis.

Uh huh. Did you also find a deep and compelling reggae influence on first glance that isn't there?

[wuapinmon]

Uh huh. Did you also find a deep and compelling reggae influence on first glance that isn't there?

I have little doubt that if the prophet put out a call for a modern Crusade to retake the New Jerusalem, you'd be the first person in the Church to sign up.

[Commando]

Really? Did the ghost of Bob Marley's mistress tell you this, or is this your herpes medication doing the talking again?

[statman]

Others have touched on it - I'll repeat. My big beef is that the talks - including general Conference talks - get the grammar wrong. Thee, thy and thou are INFORMAL speech, not formal. In English, the informal has almost completely died out.

But in (I think) all European languages - that all have formal and informal speech - you pray using the INFORMAL. This is the same way that you'd speak to a family member or to a child that you didn't know.

I don't see anyway to not be confused about what they say in their talks. If it IS formal, then Europeans pray wrong. All of them. And they misunderstand the reason for praying like they do - they view addressing God in prayer as one would a trusted friend or family member, seeking guidance, asking for forgiveness, etc. But the conference talks talk about God as if the formal language is there to build some sort of barrier of formality.

I choose to view my relationship with God in a much more informal sense than a formal one. I am reminded of the Monty Python skit slamming on the CofE (from Meaning of Life)...

Chaplain: Let us praise God. O Lord...
Congregation: O Lord...
Chaplain: ...Ooh, You are so big...
Congregation: ...ooh, You are so big...
Chaplain: ...So absolutely huge.
Congregation: ...So absolutely huge.
Chaplain: Gosh, we're all really impressed down here, I can tell You.
Congregation: Gosh, we're all really impressed down here, I can tell You.
Chaplain: Forgive us, O Lord, for this, our dreadful toadying, and...
Congregation: And barefaced flattery.
Chaplain: But You are so strong and, well, just so super.
Congregation: Fantastic.
Humphrey: Amen.
Congregation: Amen.

this seems like it might be a unique attribute of English-speaking Christendom - where informal speech became archaic, and formal speech won out. Now when we use 'proper prayer speech' it SEEMS formal. But that's actually not the case, nor was it ever the apparent intention. Everyone uses informal and thinks we SHOULD be using the informal, accept we english speakers...

If The Brethren really think it's necessary that we speak to God formally, they need to crack-down on all the wanton use of informal speech in Europe - imagine parents TEACHING their children to talk to God informally! GASP!

That's what 65 years of Democratic Socialism will do for you...

this is really one of very few pet peeves with The Brethren. None of the issues are tremendously large or particularly important. Another is with an inconsistent policy on caffeine v hot drinks in WoW. Again in this case, the evidence of the inconsistency comes from Europe, where most members drink decaffeinated coffee, and they'd be shocked to see a missionary drink a caffeinated cola, and here where it is the opposite.). To them is most definitely IS the caffeine - the cola drinker is WRONG. To us it's the hot drinks - the decaf drinker is WRONG. They both can't be right. I wish the Church would just pick an opinion, state it clearly. Temporarily offend the group that's going to be offended, and at least make the message consistent.

Same with prayer. If it's really supposed to be formal, then you've got your work cut out for you in Europe. If it doesn't matter, since different cultrues pray in different ways, then just stop talking about it.