Liquor licenses at Church's City Creek Center?

[RobinFinderson]

It also sounds very paranoid. The area immediately surrounding the Temple is in little to no danger of becoming a strip club/bar infested spittoon...
I live here now. I work downtown. I havent seen the plight. Can someone direct me to all the gang tagging and strip clubs around the temple area? Not for me, of course....for a friend of mine...

This might be a valid argument if we weren't talking about men who have divine insight into what will happen in the future...

... but on the other hand, wouldn't it be immoral to make big private for-profit investments if you are a genuine 'seer'? I guess God has no problem with divine insider trading.

[RobinFinderson]

IIRC, a few years ago (5 - 6 I'm getting old and they all run together) someone tried to open a strip club in the old Dead Goat in Arrow Press Square, just east of the Salt Palace ( West Temple and between 1st and 2nd south). The Church fought it and eventually won in that the guy finally gave up.

If I were going to open a strip club near temple square, I would name it 'Holy Temple!'

[Katy Lied]

Heaven forbid that people visiting a religious site have to intermingle with the poor. I think you make the argument about as well as it can be made, but what you are talking about sounds like the Disneyification of religion.

Sort of like moving from East LA to Westwood?

I didn't say poor. I said crime ridden. You heard poor.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Sort of like moving from East LA to Westwood?

I didn't say poor. I said crime ridden. You heard poor.

I can personally verify the crime ridden part.

[Katy Lied]

It also sounds very paranoid. The area immediately surrounding the Temple is in little to no danger of becoming a strip club/bar infested spittoon. Aside from the Church controlling development downtown and its immediate surroundings being split between Church ownership and large office buildings, there is not enough plight to overcome the downtown area. there just arent enough poor, homeless people or enough gang activity to justify the concern. At least at a price tag over a billion dollars.

I live here now. I work downtown. I havent seen the plight. Can someone direct me to all the gang tagging and strip clubs around the temple area? Not for me, of course....for a friend of mine...

You're not visionary enough. You're thinking short term: now and in the next decade. The church is thinking in terms of much longer. More than enough time for urban plight to set in.

[TripletDaddy]

I can personally verify the crime ridden part.

Is the area around temple square crime ridden? has it traditionally been an area with higher instances of crime than other parts of SLC? I don't know the answers but it doesn't ring true to me. For as long as I can remember, Temple Square is surrounded on all sides by Church owned property (as well as a large mall). What is the danger?

[TripletDaddy]

You're not visionary enough. You're thinking short term: now and in the next decade. The church is thinking in terms of much longer. More than enough time for urban plight to set in.

I don't need to be a visionary. I just need to look at a map. The Church owns the property on all sides of temple square minus the mall. I suppose it is possible that the mall becomes a massive strip club. Here you go, just for you:

[Jeff Lebowski]

Is the area around temple square crime ridden? has it traditionally been an area with higher instances of crime than other parts of SLC? I don't know the answers but it doesn't ring true to me. For as long as I can remember, Temple Square is surrounded on all sides by Church owned property (as well as a large mall). What is the danger?

I was the victim of a smash-and-grab a few blocks from temple square. But I don't have an opinion on the overall level of danger so I will bow out of the discussion now.

[TripletDaddy]

But I was the victim of a smash-and-grab a few blocks from temple square. But I don't have an opinion on the overall level of danger so I will bow out of the discussion now.

I don't know, either, which is why I am asking.

I think this is why there have been no express rationalizations to support this expensive project. The Church would have a tough time justifying any of them, so it simply stays quiet (which is its right, of course) and spends its money as it sees fit.

The crime thing is bogus, though. Sounds like something right out of the script from those Apex security sales people in everyone's ward.

[RC Vikings]

But I was the victim of a smash-and-grab a few blocks from temple square. But I don't have an opinion on the overall level of danger so I will bow out of the discussion now.

I would like to hear more about this.

[TripletDaddy]

I would like to hear more about this.

My guess is that tooblue was in town for one reason or another.

[Jeff Lebowski]

I would like to hear more about this.

Not much to tell. Parked over by the old Salt Palace for a Jazz game. Came back and my side window was smashed in and my Garmin was gone. They also rifled through the glove box. A dozen or so cars in the parking lot were hit at the same time.

[RC Vikings]

Not much to tell. Parked over by the old Salt Palace for a Jazz game. Came back and my side window was smashed in and my Garmin was gone. They also rifled through the glove box. A dozen or so cars in the parking lot were hit at the same time.

I'm sorry to hear about that but I'm glad it's not what I was thinking. I was thinking a smash-and-grab was where they grab something from you while you are walking, push you over and run away. I thought that only happened to little old ladies and I wondered how it happened to you.

[KillerDog]

I don't think it is about crime or poverty. I think the Church keenly feels the exodus of Mormons from downtown SLC. The number of LDS is in dramatic decline and the number of active LDS is in even more dramatic decline. The saints are hemorraging out of the Avenues and Marmalade and flowing to other locales.

Since 2001 I have watched 3 vibrant stakes become two stakes and now one of those stakes is down to 5 units. In that time period I have seen members of the quorum of the 12 (two different members) and many members of the 70 come to stake and ward conferences and talk about how we need to "take back downtown SLC." They aren't talking about taking it from the poor and needy, they are talking about taking it from the non-Mormons.

The people who are willing to pay incredibly high prices to have a condo that overlooks the temple are members of the Church. Moreover, they are members of the Church who have a high level of devotion, a high level of affluence, and no aversion to living downtown. I believe the Church was willing to fund the urban renewel at the CCC because it would allow them to move those people into the neighborhood who could turn the neighborhood around.

I don't see anything wrong with it.

BTW, on the subject of Deseret Managemetn Corp., I was under the impression that donations (not necessarily tithing) secured the Church's stake in the organizations and/or funded the startup or insured the survival of the organizations. The Church kept them as "for profit" organizations because it allowed greater flexibility. I believe the organizations donate to the Church (pay their own tithing) and only have general authority involvement at the board level. All of this could be false but that is my understanding from someone who would know.

[Portland Ute]

I think they're worried about Temple Square becoming a fortress in the midst of Sodom and Gomorrah. You get bars and strip clubs on South Temple and are members going to want to drive in from the suburbs? What will visitors think? Things like Main Street Plaza, City Creek, moving BYU SL downtown are attempts to create sort of a buffer between TS and the rest of the city, to retain some of the mormon-ness around TS. Call it image, PR, missionary work, but that's the thinking as far as I'm concerned.

It's the approach that was/is being used in Ogden around the Ogden temple grounds.