Liquor licenses at Church's City Creek Center?

[pellegrino]

The 1.1B number comes from the church but it does not break it down any further. So I have no other details on the sources of all that money. As I say, the largest chunk of it is in kind and is "valued" at that number which is almost certainly a number quite a bit higher than the acquisition or as the case may be production cost of those things.

That is counting all of the members, which the church does when it reports membership numbers. If you want to be more generous and say that may 25% of them active and tithe paying then the number balloons to a whopping $16 or so per person.

as I expected, it doesn't affect the bottom line. I do wonder if they include the perpetual education fund. If they do then it makes the numbers even more pitiful, imo, as that particular fund has been the most successful over the past decade or so.

[Moliere]

Today I read something interesting. According to the church it has spent approximately $1.1 billion on humanitarian aid over the last 25 years (most of that is donated stuff, but a decent chunk is cash). When divided by the number of members of the church that ends up being less than $5 annually per person and less than 1% of the church's annual revenue.

It was pointed out that were the church to simply "tithe" 10% of its revenue to humanitarian aid it would contribute something like $750M per year, as opposed to the @$44M or less than $5 per person it currently does. It would appear that the rest remainder of the budget going to buildings, administrative costs and investment. Apples and oranges I know, but the highly criticized and scandalized Red Cross gets about 91 cents of every dollar donated to humanitarian efforts.

I'm not a big fan of the City Creek Center project. I think it is not only outside of the scope of a church, but it also will surely bring a lot of bad publicity at some point (think Main Street Plaza). I think the money could be better spent elsewhere.

That being said, I also believe that the majority of service and humanitarian work being performed is done by the members in their own local area with their own resources. We do this in my area with local charities. We've done food bank drives, meals on wheels, hurricane clean up, made blankets/hygiene kits, etc. None of these were done using church funds or at hte request of the church.

Although the church is very centralized (from a leadership and doctrinal standpoint) it is very decentralized from a service and humanitarian aid standpoint. Could the church do more? Yes. Should they? I have no idea but given the miniscule budget my ward receives in comparison to what is expected to be done I think the church might be a bit strained as it is.

[UtahDan]

I'm not a big fan of the City Creek Center project. I think it is not only outside of the scope of a church, but it also will surely bring a lot of bad publicity at some point (think Main Street Plaza). I think the money could be better spent elsewhere.

That being said, I also believe that the majority of service and humanitarian work being performed is done by the members in their own local area with their own resources. We do this in my area with local charities. We've done food bank drives, meals on wheels, hurricane clean up, made blankets/hygiene kits, etc. None of these were done using church funds or at hte request of the church.

Although the church is very centralized (from a leadership and doctrinal standpoint) it is very decentralized from a service and humanitarian aid standpoint. Could the church do more? Yes. Should they? I have no idea but given the miniscule budget my ward receives in comparison to what is expected to be done I think the church might be a bit strained as it is.

I think you are right that the vast majority of great humanitarian work is done by church members locally and on the individual level. My views on this are colored by my work with a local United Way that services 5 counties and distributes about 500K per year to charities. The bang that we get for those bucks is phenomenal. Battered women's shelters, free clinics, hospice care, after school programs, basic nutrition etc., etc. The good Christian service we provide in these counties and the actual impact on human suffering is something I am really proud of.

I then reflect on the idea that the two wards that meet in just one of those counties easily, easily contribute tithing annually that doubles the United Way budget. And pretty much zero of those dollars are spent in my community. Those kinds of funds have the ability to be multipliers of actual benefits, services and relief that individuals simply cannot provide. They are spent on the infrastructure of the church and its ability to proselyte and maintain its imagine. The rest is horded. If that is the mission, so be it. But the pretense that the church has anything other than a nominal humanitarian function is not supported by evidence. I happen to think good people like you could do much more good in this world with your 10% than the church does with it.

Though I have moved away from the institutional church, I still have a very strong belief that the teachings of Jesus, for the most part, represent the best aspirations of humanity. Feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, helping the beaten man on the road to Damascus. A soup kitchen is a much more powerful testament to these teachings than any massively expensive or richly adorned building.

[Brian]

I read somewhere that the CCC is the largest private construction project going in the nation right now.

All those contracted companies are making money providing services and employing thousands of people.

Salt Lake City and The State of Utah have just received several honors as leading the west, and even the nation in economic growth and fiscal discipline.

The CCC is right across the street from Temple Square (The church's worldwide headquarters). The church is committed to keeping that area economically viable, stable and productive.

Salt Lake City will gain an image boost in the eyes of visitors from this development. It should provide a return on the money spent for decades to come.

In open exercises of Priesthood mtg each Sunday, the group is asked if they know of any job openings. The Bishop is asking those who can to give generously to the fast offering fund.
Maybe they could throw a bone our way? Then again, maybe that wouldn't give the "image" the biggest bang for the buck.

[ERCougar]

The 1.1B number comes from the church but it does not break it down any further. So I have no other details on the sources of all that money. As I say, the largest chunk of it is in kind and is "valued" at that number which is almost certainly a number quite a bit higher than the acquisition or as the case may be production cost of those things.

That is counting all of the members, which the church does when it reports membership numbers. If you want to be more generous and say that may 25% of them active and tithe paying then the number balloons to a whopping $16 or so per person.

This may be beside the point for you (it sort of is, for me) but I'd be curious to see what the total fast offering contributions are for the church. I don't think most members consider tithing monies to be going primarily to humanitarian functions--they see them as going towards support of the infrastructure of the church. In that respect, the Red Cross analogy doesn't quite work, as the chief stated purpose of the Red Cross is humanitarian efforts.

The larger point you're making is whether tithing money should be directed towards infrastructure or humanitarian work. When we lived in Michigan, my wife was in the Stake RS Presidency. The stake was quite large geographically, so for their annual stake meetings, they had to provide meals for 150+ women. I remember watching them struggle to stretch their annual $600 budget to cover 300 meals (2 meals for each woman) plus printing materials and the various other expenses that are incurred in holding large meetings, as well as their expenses for the rest of the year. Contrast this with our catered Christmas dinner in our last Cedar City Ward (which was fairly well-off), which likely ran well over $600 on its own. It was a real eye-opener to see the waste that goes on, particularly in Utah wards (and I haven't touched on youth conferences, scouting, Pioneer Treks, etc). I really struggled as I was writing my tithing check at the end of the year, weighing the value of a catered Christmas meal against providing malaria nets or TB meds in Africa or a simple home in Central America--instead of feeling good about giving a donation, I just felt really empty. For the next year, I decided that I'm taking my half of the tithing and humanitarian budget and distributing to the organizations where I see fit.

[DrumNFeather]

I think you are right that the vast majority of great humanitarian work is done by church members locally and on the individual level. My views on this are colored by my work with a local United Way that services 5 counties and distributes about 500K per year to charities. The bang that we get for those bucks is phenomenal. Battered women's shelters, free clinics, hospice care, after school programs, basic nutrition etc., etc. The good Christian service we provide in these counties and the actual impact on human suffering is something I am really proud of.

I then reflect on the idea that the two wards that meet in just one of those counties easily, easily contribute tithing annually that doubles the United Way budget. And pretty much zero of those dollars are spent in my community. Those kinds of funds have the ability to be multipliers of actual benefits, services and relief that individuals simply cannot provide. They are spent on the infrastructure of the church and its ability to proselyte and maintain its imagine. The rest is horded. If that is the mission, so be it. But the pretense that the church has anything other than a nominal humanitarian function is not supported by evidence. I happen to think good people like you could do much more good in this world with your 10% than the church does with it.

Though I have moved away from the institutional church, I still have a very strong belief that the teachings of Jesus, for the most part, represent the best aspirations of humanity. Feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, helping the beaten man on the road to Damascus. A soup kitchen is a much more powerful testament to these teachings than any massively expensive or richly adorned building.

Are you talking specifically about Temples here? Or regular meeting houses? Or both?

[creekster]

This may be beside the point for you (it sort of is, for me) but I'd be curious to see what the total fast offering contributions are for the church. I don't think most members consider tithing monies to be going primarily to humanitarian functions--they see them as going towards support of the infrastructure of the church. In that respect, the Red Cross analogy doesn't quite work, as the chief stated purpose of the Red Cross is humanitarian efforts.

The larger point you're making is whether tithing money should be directed toward infrastructure or humanitarian work. When we lived in Michigan, my wife was in the Stake RS Presidency. The stake was quite large geographically, so for their annual stake meetings, they had to provide meals for 150+ women. I remember watching them struggle to stretch their annual $600 budget to cover 300 meals (2 meals for each woman) plus printing materials and the various other expenses that are incurred in holding large meetings, as well as their expenses for the rest of the year. Contrast this with our catered Christmas dinner in our last Cedar City Ward (which was fairly well-off), which likely ran well over $600 on its own. It was a real eye-opener to see the waste that goes on, particularly in Utah wards (and I haven't touched on youth conferences, scouting, Pioneer Treks, etc). I really struggled as I was writing my tithing check at the end of the year, weighing the value of a catered Christmas meal against providing malaria nets or TB meds in Africa or a simple home in Central America--instead of feeling good about giving a donation, I just felt really empty. For the next year, I decided that I'm taking my half of the tithing and humanitarian budget and distributing to the organizations where I see fit.

I have not followed this thread so intend to make no comment here except to note that in our area budgets are typically not that dissimilar across wards. The discrepancy in these sorts of events in our areas occur when members decide to foot the bill themselves. This has been something our SP has tried to corral, but it still happens.

[ERCougar]

I have not followed this thread so intend to make no comment here except to note that in our area budgets are typically not that dissimilar across wards. The discrepancy in these sorts of events in our areas occur when members decide to foot the bill themselves. This has been something our SP has tried to corral, but it still happens.

I'll admit that that may have occurred on the Christmas dinner, since I had no part in the planning, although I'm quite sure the Pioneer Trek in this latter ward, where I was involved, was covered by Church funds. And it was not cheap by any stretch.

I can see the argument where training and retaining youth is worth the investment (and hence, the high budgets dedicated to scouting). I just don't agree with it. I think our youth would really benefit from participating in scaled-down activities and pure service and charity. I think my kids could really benefit from seeing 10% of their income going to feed a child in Africa instead of a really nice padded bench.

In the end, I just left that tithing experience with the feeling that I need to know what the money that I'm purportedly giving back to God is really being used for. The Church certainly belongs on the list of recipients (I think there is some societal value to the work they do) but I just don't feel good about them being the primary recipient of my charitable donations at this point. Maybe that's a reflection of my testimony--which is maybe the point of tithing.

[Sullyute]

This may be beside the point for you (it sort of is, for me) but I'd be curious to see what the total fast offering contributions are for the church. I don't think most members consider tithing monies to be going primarily to humanitarian functions--they see them as going towards support of the infrastructure of the church. In that respect, the Red Cross analogy doesn't quite work, as the chief stated purpose of the Red Cross is humanitarian efforts.

The larger point you're making is whether tithing money should be directed towards infrastructure or humanitarian work. When we lived in Michigan, my wife was in the Stake RS Presidency. The stake was quite large geographically, so for their annual stake meetings, they had to provide meals for 150+ women. I remember watching them struggle to stretch their annual $600 budget to cover 300 meals (2 meals for each woman) plus printing materials and the various other expenses that are incurred in holding large meetings, as well as their expenses for the rest of the year. Contrast this with our catered Christmas dinner in our last Cedar City Ward (which was fairly well-off), which likely ran well over $600 on its own. It was a real eye-opener to see the waste that goes on, particularly in Utah wards (and I haven't touched on youth conferences, scouting, Pioneer Treks, etc). I really struggled as I was writing my tithing check at the end of the year, weighing the value of a catered Christmas meal against providing malaria nets or TB meds in Africa or a simple home in Central America--instead of feeling good about giving a donation, I just felt really empty. For the next year, I decided that I'm taking my half of the tithing and humanitarian budget and distributing to the organizations where I see fit.

President Smith in regards to giving your tithing money to a charity other than the church:

“I think you are a very generous man with someone else’s property. … You have not paid any tithing. You have told me what you have done with the Lord’s money. … You have taken your best partner’s money, and have given it away” (“The Story of a Generous Man,” Improvement Era, June 1947, 357.

[ERCougar]

President Smith in regards to giving your tithing money to a charity other than the church:

in a place where I feel He would want it used.

[SCcoug]

President Smith in regards to giving your tithing money to a charity other than the church:

I was hoping for a grapevine response using that quote.

[Sullyute]

Today I read something interesting. According to the church it has spent approximately $1.1 billion on humanitarian aid over the last 25 years (most of that is donated stuff, but a decent chunk is cash). When divided by the number of members of the church that ends up being less than $5 annually per person and less than 1% of the church's annual revenue.

It was pointed out that were the church to simply "tithe" 10% of its revenue to humanitarian aid it would contribute something like $750M per year, as opposed to the @$44M or less than $5 per person it currently does. It would appear that the rest remainder of the budget going to buildings, administrative costs and investment. Apples and oranges I know, but the highly criticized and scandalized Red Cross gets about 91 cents of every dollar donated to humanitarian efforts.

I don't know whether this includes fast offerings or not. If it does include fast offerings then I would guestimate that a very large chunk of the money is probably staying with the wards or stakes to pay electric bills, mortgage payments, phone payments etc. of the members in need.

This can be a good thing or a bad thing depending on your perspective or your ward. If this is not what you intend your fast offerings to do then you should specify that they go only to humanitarian causes within the church or pay them directly to a charity that does that.

[UtahDan]

Are you talking specifically about Temples here? Or regular meeting houses? Or both?

Those and probably primarily the City Creek Mall which obviously I think is obscene. Not to say that I don't understand the idea of people being spiritually fed, but I am saying that things like homeless shelters, soup kitchens, food closets, etc. for which there is a never ending need glorify the Christian ideal as much if not more than beautiful buildings that are empty most of the time. Particularly when so much of the money is basically being stock piled.

[Moliere]

Particularly when so much of the money is basically being stock piled.

Basically we are replacing faith with fiscal conservatism.

There are other things that are being replaced, but I won't go there in this thread.

[Sullyute]

Originally Posted by UtahDan
Particularly when so much of the money is basically being stock piled.

Basically we are replacing faith with fiscal conservatism.

There are other things that are being replaced, but I won't go there in this thread.

I taught Elders quorum yesterday on Return and Report. I brought up the fact that we all report from the bottom up, and asked if there should be more reporting from the top down. I specifically asked if the church should disclose more of its finances. I wasn't too surprised that most said no, but one very recently returned missionary said yes. I asked why and he said that it was hard to get people to commit to pay tithing when they couldn't see where the funds were going. I thought that was great insight. So the church might actually increase tithing payment if people knew where the funds were being used...