Liquor licenses at Church's City Creek Center?

[KillerDog]

I have observed a couple of occasions where the Church had an event that was overly costly to the point of distasteful. In one Stake I attended the High Priest Quorum Social was catered by a well known downtown catering company and had live musicians. It turned out that the funds for the party were entirely donated and that approval for an event funded outside of the budget was made at the Q of 12 level.

The other event was a youth conference involving more than $70,000 worth of cash costs (not counting donated materials and time). Turns out that the funding for that was also entirely from an individual in the Stake and approval had been obtained from the president of the Church.

I am convinced the CCC is not an investment project. I believe it is a missionary project and an effort to "take back" downtown SLC from the infidels. I don't have time to post more on that now but I'll post more on it later if people are interested.

[scottie]

I don't have time to post more on that now but I'll post more on it later if people are interested.

I am.

[ERCougar]

I have observed a couple of occasions where the Church had an event that was overly costly to the point of distasteful. In one Stake I attended the High Priest Quorum Social was catered by a well known downtown catering company and had live musicians. It turned out that the funds for the party were entirely donated and that approval for an event funded outside of the budget was made at the Q of 12 level.

The other event was a youth conference involving more than $70,000 worth of cash costs (not counting donated materials and time). Turns out that the funding for that was also entirely from an individual in the Stake and approval had been obtained from the president of the Church.

I am convinced the CCC is not an investment project. I believe it is a missionary project and an effort to "take back" downtown SLC from the infidels. I don't have time to post more on that now but I'll post more on it later if people are interested.

Well, then that invites the question whether there are better places to spend that kind of money. Of course, I'd hate my budget to come under others' scrutiny, so I guess that's none of my business.

[RobinFinderson]

I just don't see how a church can legitimately justify a for-profit venture. To invest in something like this means that the church literally has more money than it needs for operational costs. I can think of a few legitimate uses of excess funds in such a situaiton:

• Increase operational costs. Make nicer churches/temples. Go back to hiring janitors. Fund more ward and stake social events, and make participation more enjoyable. All of this serves the membership and makes missionary work easier. It is the equivalent of a professional wearing a decent suit, and not some piece of crap from Mr. Mac.
  
• Welfare. If you service makes up a big part of a church's raison d'etre, you can always spend excess funds on service. Specifically, for the LDS, I think there tends to be a serious disconnect between the funds that are used for service outside the ward, and a sense of individual investment in that service. People give the church money knowing that it will be used for good, but they seldom have a sense of what good that money is doing.
  
• Decrease financial contributions. I don't think you can get rid of the 10%, since that is pretty much an immutable doctrine, but the church could stop begging for alms in other places, and use the excess to cover that.
  
• A rainy day account. Naturally, this would need to be a highly liquid account, which is the opposite of the CCC venture.

It is hard for me to pin down what seems so offensive about the church's profit venture, but maybe it just the opportunity cost this real estate venture represents.

And how will the profits from this venture get funneled back to the church? And who would stand to lose from potential losses? And who stands to gain from the profits that are not funneled back to the church? And what advantages does the for-profit side have because of its connection to a church? Can the church hold real estate without paying taxes on it, then sell that land to the for-profit side below market value? There is plenty of ethically questionable territory for the church navigate here, and there is pretty much zero incentive for members to look too closely at how the church is navigating this.

[venkman]

II am convinced the CCC is not an investment project. I believe it is a missionary project and an effort to "take back" downtown SLC from the infidels. I don't have time to post more on that now but I'll post more on it later if people are interested.

I think they're worried about Temple Square becoming a fortress in the midst of Sodom and Gomorrah. You get bars and strip clubs on South Temple and are members going to want to drive in from the suburbs? What will visitors think? Things like Main Street Plaza, City Creek, moving BYU SL downtown are attempts to create sort of a buffer between TS and the rest of the city, to retain some of the mormon-ness around TS. Call it image, PR, missionary work, but that's the thinking as far as I'm concerned.

[All-American]

I think they're worried about Temple Square becoming a fortress in the midst of Sodom and Gomorrah. You get bars and strip clubs on South Temple and are members going to want to drive in from the suburbs? What will visitors think? Things like Main Street Plaza, City Creek, moving BYU SL downtown are attempts to create sort of a buffer between TS and the rest of the city, to retain some of the mormon-ness around TS. Call it image, PR, missionary work, but that's the thinking as far as I'm concerned.

They don't want Salt Lake to turn into Ogden. Seems reasonable enough.

[TripletDaddy]

The Church should simply buy a big enough chunk of downtown and create its own sovereign nation, much like Vatican City. It can be the smallest country in the world, with its own currency (Kirtland money), language (reformed egyptian), and police force (Temple Square security). All the pieces are already in place.

[Sleeping in EQ]

And how will the profits from this venture get funneled back to the church? And who would stand to lose from potential losses? And who stands to gain from the profits that are not funneled back to the church? And what advantages does the for-profit side have because of its connection to a church? Can the church hold real estate without paying taxes on it, then sell that land to the for-profit side below market value? There is plenty of ethically questionable territory for the church navigate here, and there is pretty much zero incentive for members to look too closely at how the church is navigating this.

These are all reasonable questions.

[Moliere]

The Church should simply buy a big enough chunk of downtown and create its own sovereign nation, much like Vatican City. It can be the smallest country in the world, with its own currency (Kirtland money), language (reformed egyptian), and police force (Temple Square security). All the pieces are already in place.

The Vatican has the Swiss Guards. TS should hire out the Royal Canadian Mounted Police!

[RC Vikings]

This has all the makings of a Dan Brown book. Billions of dollars funneled through the church while those at the top are in taking in incredible amounts of money for themselves. No taxes, nobody to check on them, six days off a week to spend the money. Mabye SU could write it and give up on that one he's already started.

[Katy Lied]

I think they're worried about Temple Square becoming a fortress in the midst of Sodom and Gomorrah. You get bars and strip clubs on South Temple and are members going to want to drive in from the suburbs? What will visitors think? Things like Main Street Plaza, City Creek, moving BYU SL downtown are attempts to create sort of a buffer between TS and the rest of the city, to retain some of the mormon-ness around TS. Call it image, PR, missionary work, but that's the thinking as far as I'm concerned.

This is my thought. When I've travelled all over, I've toured some marvelous architectural masterpieces in the middle of some slum hellholes. Grafitti splashed all over the steps and the gates of the cathedrals, and pickpockets and thieves stationed right outside the entry doors. How many people will not go to see these great edifices because of the crime surrounding the building?

The church is not going into the business of developing CCCs all over the world. They're just building one. Right in downtown SLC to buffer their holy buildings. And they dont want to lose the vibrancy of a living, breathing buffer area, so they want people to live there and work there and worship there. Maybe too idealized for some people, and there is always room to argue that the church is not doing enough for the poor, but that's another argument.

Christ wasn't shy about specifying exactly how luxurious he wanted his temple buildings built. Even as he demonstrated how to give alms to the poor.

[RobinFinderson]

This is my thought. When I've travelled all over, I've toured some marvelous architectural masterpieces in the middle of some slum hellholes...

The church is not going into the business of developing CCCs all over the world. They're just building one. Right in downtown SLC to buffer their holy buildings. And they dont want to lose the vibrancy of a living, breathing buffer area, so they want people to live there and work there and worship there...

Heaven forbid that people visiting a religious site have to intermingle with the poor. I think you make the argument about as well as it can be made, but what you are talking about sounds like the Disneyification of religion.

[TripletDaddy]

Heaven forbid that people visiting a religious site have to intermingle with the poor. I think you make the argument about as well as it can be made, but what you are talking about sounds like the Disneyification of religion.

It also sounds very paranoid. The area immediately surrounding the Temple is in little to no danger of becoming a strip club/bar infested spittoon. Aside from the Church controlling development downtown and its immediate surroundings being split between Church ownership and large office buildings, there is not enough plight to overcome the downtown area. there just arent enough poor, homeless people or enough gang activity to justify the concern. At least at a price tag over a billion dollars.

I live here now. I work downtown. I havent seen the plight. Can someone direct me to all the gang tagging and strip clubs around the temple area? Not for me, of course....for a friend of mine...

[DapperDan]

The Church should simply buy a big enough chunk of downtown and create its own sovereign nation, much like Vatican City. It can be the smallest country in the world, with its own currency (Kirtland money), language (reformed egyptian), and police force (Temple Square security). All the pieces are already in place.

I can get behind this, but first we have to get some new architects and artists.

[happyone]

... I live here now. I work downtown. I havent seen the plight. Can someone direct me to all the gang tagging and strip clubs around the temple area? Not for me, of course....for a friend of mine...

IIRC, a few years ago (5 - 6 I'm getting old and they all run together) someone tried to open a strip club in the old Dead Goat in Arrow Press Square, just east of the Salt Palace ( West Temple and between 1st and 2nd south). The Church fought it and eventually won in that the guy finally gave up.