Liquor licenses at Church's City Creek Center?

[Surfah]

There are Mormons (see CB) who have a problem with the Marriotts (they are a Mormon family) offering porn in their hotels. I will not be surprised if those same folks are left scratching their heads if the Mormon church allows businesses in its CCC to sell alcohol.

[Babs]

There are Mormons (see CB) who have a problem with the Marriotts (they are a Mormon family) offering porn in their hotels. I will not be surprised if those same folks are left scratching their heads if the Mormon church allows businesses in its CCC to sell alcohol.

lol. Yes, I realize that. I didn't say I didn't understand your analogy. I said it didn't seem very analogous. But perhaps the Mormons you refer to would perceive the two instances as analogous, in which case your point stands.

[Babs]

I bet she didn't really think it was just her. That crazy Babs!

fine! Maybe it's just me and landpoke and Indy and Surf and ER, but...

[scottie]

[Surfah]

I understand your argument. It is just a poor one. Are you suggesting that the Church stop CCC because of these members? Besides, those who have chimed in this thread in opposition to CCC don't seem to fit the subset you're arguing for.

[Jeff Lebowski]

There isn't enough that the Church could do to satisfy everyone. The Church could divest all of its assets and give them away to charity and I'm positive that it would be roundly criticized by many.

You could say that (criticism no matter what) of virtually any large organization. In the context of a discussion on a multi-billion dollar investment by a church, it seems like a copout.

[scottie]

I understand your argument. It is just a poor one. Are you suggesting that the Church stop CCC because of these members? Besides, those who have chimed in this thread in opposition to CCC don't seem to fit the subset you're arguing for.

We all know this is CUF.

[CardiacCoug]

The City Creek thing makes you realize that the Church disagrees with the way Mother Theresa gave handouts but not a hand up, just like Chris Hitchens. We believe in trickle-down capitalism. We are an American church first and foremost. And I'm OK with that. I also agree with Chris Hitchens and the superiority of the American, capitalistic work/investment ethic over pure Christianity.

[statman]

The City Creek thing makes you realize that the Church disagrees with the way Mother Theresa gave handouts but not a hand up, just like Chris Hitchens. We believe in trickle-down capitalism. We are an American church first and foremost. And I'm OK with that. I also agree with Chris Hitchens and the superiority of the American, capitalistic work/investment ethic over pure Christianity.

Since Chris Hitchens is a dyed-in-the-wool atheist, he believes in the superiority of the "Magic 8 Ball" over Christianity. He has utter and total disdain for all things religious...

[NorthwestUteFan]

When the LDS temple in Draper was announced one guy owned 10 lots within a block of the temple. He was selling them for 145k a piece. As soon as they announced that location was going to be a temple and not just another church in a down economy he started selling them for $300k each and sold them all within in a week.

Ah yes. One of those houses, the BIG one among big houses on the circle on the hill above to the south and west of that temple, I know was built as a spec home (~$6m IIRC). It was ostentatious to every possible extreme. It is beautiful, but nearly rivals the temple itself in both size, finish, and 'visibility'.

My wife calls it the Rameumptom. I think her observation is brilliant.

As I recall, Ellis Ivory made a SHITload of money on all the properties around the Bountiful temple. He owned the majority of (or all of) the property immediately around the temple, including the grounds upon which it was built.

Then he built all the houses. Win-win for the Ivory clan. They are a wonderful family, by the way, I am not knocking him for taking advantage of the situation. In many ways I admire his foresight. Ellis was my stake president for a while when I was growing up and I knew them fairly well.

I lived in SoCal when the (BEAUTIFUL I might add...) Hsi Lai Buddhist temple in Hacienda Heights was built in the early 90's. I remember couples walking down the streets, knocking on doors to inquire whether they could purchase the house. They were offering what at the time seemed to be well over market value for the homes. Many times they were carrying, or had ready access to, cash for the entire purchase. One of my neighbors, an elderly widow, told me afterward that the man pulled about $50k in $100 bills from a paper lunch bag and offered it to her as a 'down payment' on her house.

Especially prized were homes situated downhill and with their front doors facing the temple, so "...blessings can roll down the hill and into our home." Of course feng shui worked heavily in the equation, eg, you don't want the front stairs to run down to the front door of the house because blessings will roll out the front door...

Anyway, my point is many populations will put a premium on proximity to an important edifice. Some will even go far above and beyond the call to 'show their piety' and purchase the most noticable house in close proximity to said edifice. Somehow the more 'showy' the house and the closer to the temple, the more humble and 'worthy' the occupants?

Something to think about.

[CardiacCoug]

Since Chris Hitchens is a dyed-in-the-wool atheist, he believes in the superiority of the "Magic 8 Ball" over Christianity. He has utter and total disdain for all things religious...

Hitchens is an atheist? I had no idea.

But seriously, the City Creek thing proves that the Church leadership rejects the notion that the greatest good comes from pure Christian giving to the poorest of the poor, a la Mother Theresa.

The leadership consists of pragmatic, capitalistic Americans and that is reflected in how the Church is run. The Church is run the same way most LDS households are run. The primary focus is obtaining and cultivating household resources, and a healthy percentage (15%) given to charitable causes. It's an American model -- not a pure Christian model.

Didn't Christ say something about selling all your possessions and giving it all to the poor? Yeah, we don't buy that part -- just like Chris Hitchens.

[Moliere]

The City Creek thing makes you realize that the Church disagrees with the way Mother Theresa gave handouts but not a hand up, just like Chris Hitchens. We believe in trickle-down capitalism. We are an American church first and foremost. And I'm OK with that. I also agree with Chris Hitchens and the superiority of the American, capitalistic work/investment ethic over pure Christianity.

This post has been ringing in my ears for sometime now. This is a great thought and is very interesting, especially in light of my constant reading of RSR. I'm not saying I agree (I do to a point but not philosophically) but I truly appreciated this post.

[UtahDan]

Today I read something interesting. According to the church it has spent approximately $1.1 billion on humanitarian aid over the last 25 years (most of that is donated stuff, but a decent chunk is cash). When divided by the number of members of the church that ends up being less than $5 annually per person and less than 1% of the church's annual revenue.

It was pointed out that were the church to simply "tithe" 10% of its revenue to humanitarian aid it would contribute something like $750M per year, as opposed to the @$44M or less than $5 per person it currently does. It would appear that the rest remainder of the budget going to buildings, administrative costs and investment. Apples and oranges I know, but the highly criticized and scandalized Red Cross gets about 91 cents of every dollar donated to humanitarian efforts.

[pellegrino]

Today I read something interesting. According to the church it has spent approximately $1.1 billion on humanitarian aid over the last 25 years (most of that is donated stuff, but a decent chunk is cash). When divided by the number of members of the church that ends up being less than $5 annually per person and less than 1% of the church's annual revenue.

It was pointed out that were the church to simply "tithe" 10% of its revenue to humanitarian aid it would contribute something like $750M per year, as opposed to the @$44M or less than $5 per person it currently does. It would appear that the rest remainder of the budget going to buildings, administrative costs and investment. Apples and oranges I know, but the highly criticized and scandalized Red Cross gets about 91 cents of every dollar donated to humanitarian efforts.

a few questions:

Do we know how much of that 1.1 billion was donated through normal donation slips?

When you divide by the number of members of the church, are you using the official reported membership, an estimate of active members, or number of full tithe payers?

Is the perpetual education fund included in humanitarian aide?


you know where I stand on the issue, and I don't think the changing the number of members in consideration would really change the bottom line, but I'm interested all the same.

[UtahDan]

a few questions:

Do we know how much of that 1.1 billion was donated through normal donation slips?

When you divide by the number of members of the church, are you using the official reported membership, an estimate of active members, or number of full tithe payers?

Is the perpetual education fund included in humanitarian aide?


you know where I stand on the issue, and I don't think the changing the number of members in consideration would really change the bottom line, but I'm interested all the same.

The 1.1B number comes from the church but it does not break it down any further. So I have no other details on the sources of all that money. As I say, the largest chunk of it is in kind and is "valued" at that number which is almost certainly a number quite a bit higher than the acquisition or as the case may be production cost of those things.

That is counting all of the members, which the church does when it reports membership numbers. If you want to be more generous and say that may 25% of them active and tithe paying then the number balloons to a whopping $16 or so per person.