Dishonest Insurance Claims

[RobinFinderson]

Do you seriously think that anyone, ever, tries to find comparable used carpet? You are kidding, right?

Of course not. I was just laying out the reason why a person with 50-year-old carpet should feel perfectly justified in making a claim for new carpet.

[happyone]

I'm surprised you didn't even know this. My bishop requires me to bring in my tax return when I have a temple recommend interview. He then audits the tax return and makes sure I'm not claiming too many deductions or taking deductions that I really don't qualify for. Then he compares it against my tithing paid for the previous years and makes sure I'm paying at least 10% of my gross income. He usually does this while all the welfare recipients are sitting out in the foyer starving at which point he yells at them to "Go pay your own d*** energy bills."

He then does a full medical evaluation to make sure I'm living the word of wisdom and not engaging in any "unnatural" bedroom acts. He also wants to make sure I haven't had any certain "surgeries" without consulting with him. I'm usually very thankful when this is over seeing as how his wood desk is very uncomfortable both for sitting and for lying down.

The most annoying part is when we hop in his car and we drive over to my house for him to visually inspect the house to make sure I have the ensign on my coffee living room table and a picture of the Savior in every room of my house. He also makes sure the computer is in an open area adn that my kids know thier articles of faith.

That's because you're an accountant - you know what say about good accountants

[creekster]

Of course not. I was just laying out the reason why a person with 50-year-old carpet should feel perfectly justified in making a claim for new carpet.

In that case, what exactly makes you think this is what they are talking about? This example is obviously not fraud and doesn't fall within the letter's identified scenarios (1. exaggerating the amount of damage, 2. cleaning expenses, or 3. expenses incurred while living away from home). So I wouldn't worry too much about the carpet issue.

[Moliere]

That's because you're an accountant - you know what say about good accountants

A good accountant never gets caught?

[RobinFinderson]

In that case, what exactly makes you think this is what they are talking about? This example is obviously not fraud and doesn't fall within the letter's identified scenarios (1. exaggerating the amount of damage, 2. cleaning expenses, or 3. expenses incurred while living away from home). So I wouldn't worry too much about the carpet issue.

I mentioned it because Wally brought it up.

[wally]

The SP letter specifically states that they received reports of fraudulent claims.

Isn't the specific principle of honesty, as opposed to any specific course of action, exactly what the SP emphasized in their letter?

I'm hoping that the insurance company/national guard isn't running to the SP with their suspicions (but hey, this is Utah?!), so I am left with the assumption that the reports were made by other members.

Hypothetically, If I am honest about my claim and my neighbor is not, my initial knee-jerk (natural man) reaction is to think: “Hey, I could be getting a 60” flat screen back to replace my 37”? I assume this feeling would be the impetus to tell the Bishop/SP.

I personally would hope that I would be content that my honesty is my reward. (of, course, you can’t watch ‘honesty’ in HD, at 60” in size)

If we are doing our jobs on Sundays going through Gospel Principles in Sunday school, then I would hope that church members are being thoughtful and honest about their claims, and not feel the need to incessantly remind them. They should know what is honest and what is not.

Also, if a member is being dishonest about a claim, then the likelihood that they’re also going to be dishonest in a TR interview is greater is it not? Is the SP going out of its way to preach to the choir at this point?

I will admit though, if I were in the place of the SP this would be a very tough situation to be in.

[UtahDan]

How do you know they don't know? Unless you think they are claiming complete inspiration or a vision it appears to me from the letter that they have received information that fraudulent practices have occurred. If so, they teach the principle of honesty, which doesn't appear to relate to porn and goes all the way back to Big Mo's tablets, and then suggests people govern themselves. I admit it seems pretty pro-active, but it is hard for me to imply they were acting incorrectly. It is also hard for me to understand why this is news. In the context of sermons given by preachers of other faiths this is no big deal.

How do you know I don't know they don't know or do know? I'm just asking the question. I haven't said it was incorrect, I don't think, just that I think a different approach is better. But do you approve of this approach? Is it a good thing for people to report wrong doing that is happening in the Stake so that the file leaders can address it directly? I assume there is a reason I have never heard of this being done before, but maybe I am just ignorant and it happens a lot.

[UtahDan]

The SP letter specifically states that they received reports of fraudulent claims.

Isn't the specific principle of honesty, as opposed to any specific course of action, exactly what the SP emphasized in their letter?

Perhaps we will see this more and more. Maybe it is a good thing. You and your whole ward better watch your backs Surfah, because I just put our SP on speed dial!

[creekster]

How do you know I don't know they don't know or do know? I'm just asking the question. I haven't said it was incorrect, I don't think, just that I think a different approach is better. But do you approve of this approach? Is it a good thing for people to report wrong doing that is happening in the Stake so that the file leaders can address it directly? I assume there is a reason I have never heard of this being done before, but maybe I am just ignorant and it happens a lot.

It might be a good thing. I really have no idea. But I dont think it is prudent to second guess a SP on the basis of a flimsy report and a general letter mentioned in a SLtrib article. I see nothing inherently wrong abotu what happened and I see no reason that it should be second guessed. But I guess it keeps us away from how much money Utah/BYU will get from the latest contract (and when did THAT become sports talk?)

[creekster]

Perhaps we will see this more and more. Maybe it is a good thing. You and your whole ward better watch your backs Surfah, because I just put our SP on speed dial!

you really have no idea what happened. maybe a spouse complained. Mayeb someone was busted for lying. WHo knows? I don't.

[wally]

It might be a good thing. I really have no idea. But I dont think it is prudent to second guess a SP on the basis of a flimsy report and a general letter mentioned in a SLtrib article. I see nothing inherently wrong abotu what happened and I see no reason that it should be second guessed. But I guess it keeps us away from how much money Utah/BYU will get from the latest contract (and when did THAT become sports talk?)

A good point.

I think that this type of thing is something that SLtrib staff salivate over. They live for the LDS miss-step, or perceived miss-step.

I (again) think that the SP in the story is probably under a lot of stress caring for those that lost everything and supporting people in a state of emotional turmoil.

[statman]

My problem with it is that exaggeration is in the eye of the beholder. The woman in the article that says all she needed was a $250 carpet cleaning (not new carpet) presumable believes that her carpet has been restored to original value. But what if someone else put in brand new carpet the week before the fire? Are they entitled to brand new carpet since they lost brand new carpet?

I think this could cause a lot of contention between neighbors with similar damage claiming different losses, especially now with a religious element thrown into the already stressful situation.

I guess that I would assume that the SP would let its members figure it out on their own with their own consciences, but I can be convinced otherwise. This is my knee-jerk reaction, and it’s probably a heathenistic one at that, having been influenced by the dark side The Foyer.

Ummm - where did the SP NOT let the members figure it out on their own?

[statman]

Do you seriously think that anyone, ever, tries to find comparable used carpet? You are kidding, right?

In some states (CT for sure - I sold carpet there 20 years ago) it's illegal for a licensed contractor to install used carpet in another house. Health code issues, or some such.

[statman]

Is it a good thing for people to report wrong doing that is happening in the Stake so that the file leaders can address it directly?

Ummm - "people" report wrong doing to the Stake President all the time. What do you think PPI's are for? You think the Bishop meets with the Stake President once a month to chat? And all the EQPs and HPGLs? And the HC members who also should be having PPIs with the EQPs and HPGLs. They're all reporting back to the SP things that are going on in the stake's wards/groups/quorums. And yes, that would most definitely include a wave of insurance fraud that they thought/knew was occurring.

And the SP is 100% correct for speaking out about it, and warning people that over-reporting losses is fraud, and would make you unworthy for a TR.

I'm a whole-hearted believer in teaching correct principles and letting people govern themselves, but if a SP gets a hint that there is bunch of sinning going on and does nothing to try to stop it - especially with Melch. Priesthood holders - he's going to have some 'splainin' to do...

[UtahDan]

Ummm - "people" report wrong doing to the Stake President all the time. What do you think PPI's are for? You think the Bishop meets with the Stake President once a month to chat? And all the EQPs and HPGLs? And the HC members who also should be having PPIs with the EQPs and HPGLs. They're all reporting back to the SP things that are going on in the stake's wards/groups/quorums. And yes, that would most definitely include a wave of insurance fraud that they thought/knew was occurring.

You make it sound like they get together to gossip.

And the SP is 100% correct for speaking out about it, and warning people that over-reporting losses is fraud, and would make you unworthy for a TR.

I'm a whole-hearted believer in teaching correct principles and letting people govern themselves, but if a SP gets a hint that there is bunch of sinning going on and does nothing to try to stop it - especially with Melch. Priesthood holders - he's going to have some 'splainin' to do...

Like I say, watch your back Surfah. I have my eye on you.

EDIT: By the way, the idea that the whole priesthood structure is one big gossip network that culminates with the SP reading a dossier of what wrong doing is going on in his stake revolts me at a visceral level. I''m pretty sure that is not what is going on.