Dishonest Insurance Claims

[wally]

So this is the “most read” story in the Salt Lake Tribune this morning.

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/home/50...tml.csp?page=2

There were a number of homes in Herriman, Utah that were burned down or damaged by a fire started by the Utah National Guard (Camp Williams) military base. I believe machinegun fire started the blaze.

So jist of the article is that the local Stake Presidency is stepping in with regards to claims that church members are filing for their losses (see quote below).

My initial thought is that the SP is opening up a can of worms by poking their nose into this situation. I am interested in the opinions of those here on CUF, because the collective CUF opinion is never wrong.

The Stake Presidency's:

“We are saddened by several reports coming to us of some of our members taking advantage of the willingness of the Utah National Guard to reimburse cleanup or damage expenses ... ,” the e-mailed letter begins. “It is reported that some members are filing fraudulent claims by exaggerating the amount of damage, cleaning expenses or expenses incurred while living away from home.
“Others have expressed the opinion that, ‘I deserve as much as I can get, because they caused all this!’ We invite all to consider their individual situations in light of a Christlike approach.”
The letter goes on to say there is no intent “to cause any grief” to people with legitimate claims and reimbursement for “actual expenditures” is appropriate.
But the letter also tells members: “Remember the next time you sit with a member of your bishopric or stake presidency in an interview for renewal of your temple recommend, you will want to be able to sincerely answer the question, ‘Are you honest in your dealings with your fellow men?’”

[Indy Coug]

I have no problem with the letter.

[wally]

I have no problem with the letter.

My problem with it is that exaggeration is in the eye of the beholder. The woman in the article that says all she needed was a $250 carpet cleaning (not new carpet) presumable believes that her carpet has been restored to original value. But what if someone else put in brand new carpet the week before the fire? Are they entitled to brand new carpet since they lost brand new carpet?

I think this could cause a lot of contention between neighbors with similar damage claiming different losses, especially now with a religious element thrown into the already stressful situation.

I guess that I would assume that the SP would let its members figure it out on their own with their own consciences, but I can be convinced otherwise. This is my knee-jerk reaction, and it’s probably a heathenistic one at that, having been influenced by the dark side The Foyer.

[creekster]

Geez, how on earth can that stake president waste time preaching about honesty when he could have used the time to talk about porn?

[wally]

Geez, how on earth can that stake president waste time preaching about honesty when he could have used the time to talk about porn?

If you are a church member that is filing an exaggerated claim for you ruined "collection" you are going to be in a world of hurt come recommend renewal.

[old_gregg]

If you are a church member that is filing an exaggerated claim for you ruined "collection" you are going to be in a world of hurt come recommend renewal.

Any serious collector would have invested in a scanner and some fire/wife proof boxes!

[Indy Coug]

If you are a church member that is filing an exaggerated claim for you ruined "collection" you are going to be in a world of hurt come recommend renewal.

So the Stake Presidency is going to conduct an audit of member claims, or are they simply suggesting that an honest self-evaluation might lead to some members not being able to answer affirmatively to the 'honest in your dealings' question?

[wally]

So the Stake Presidency is going to conduct an audit of member claims, or are they simply suggesting that an honest self-evaluation might lead to some members not being able to answer affirmatively to the 'honest in your dealings' question?

I was re-joking about creeksters porn joke when I mentioned an exaggerated valuation of "a collection."

[Moliere]

So the Stake Presidency is going to conduct an audit of member claims, or are they simply suggesting that an honest self-evaluation might lead to some members not being able to answer affirmatively to the 'honest in your dealings' question?

I'm surprised you didn't even know this. My bishop requires me to bring in my tax return when I have a temple recommend interview. He then audits the tax return and makes sure I'm not claiming too many deductions or taking deductions that I really don't qualify for. Then he compares it against my tithing paid for the previous years and makes sure I'm paying at least 10% of my gross income. He usually does this while all the welfare recipients are sitting out in the foyer starving at which point he yells at them to "Go pay your own d*** energy bills."

He then does a full medical evaluation to make sure I'm living the word of wisdom and not engaging in any "unnatural" bedroom acts. He also wants to make sure I haven't had any certain "surgeries" without consulting with him. I'm usually very thankful when this is over seeing as how his wood desk is very uncomfortable both for sitting and for lying down.

The most annoying part is when we hop in his car and we drive over to my house for him to visually inspect the house to make sure I have the ensign on my coffee living room table and a picture of the Savior in every room of my house. He also makes sure the computer is in an open area adn that my kids know thier articles of faith.

[Portland Ute]

I'm surprised you didn't even know this. My bishop requires me to bring in my tax return when I have a temple recommend interview. He then audits the tax return and makes sure I'm not claiming too many deductions or taking deductions that I really don't qualify for. Then he compares it against my tithing paid for the previous years and makes sure I'm paying at least 10% of my gross income. He usually does this while all the welfare recipients are sitting out in the foyer starving at which point he yells at them to "Go pay your own d*** energy bills."

He then does a full medical evaluation to make sure I'm living the word of wisdom and not engaging in any "unnatural" bedroom acts. He also wants to make sure I haven't had any certain "surgeries" without consulting with him. I'm usually very thankful when this is over seeing as how his wood desk is very uncomfortable both for sitting and for lying down.

The most annoying part is when we hop in his car and we drive over to my house for him to visually inspect the house to make sure I have the ensign on my coffee living room table and a picture of the Savior in every room of my house. He also makes sure the computer is in an open area adn that my kids know thier articles of faith.

It's supposed to 10% of GROSS?

[UtahDan]

This dovetails nicely with the faith and knowledge thread. How does this SP know that fraudulent or exaggerated claims are being made?

This isn't offensive, but it does draw a bit of an eye roll. The church is at its best when it is teaching principles and at its worst when it is suggesting specific courses of action in specific situations (there are some obvious exceptions). I think the sabbath day line of thought which is essentially "here at the principles that we hope will guide you, but there decision as to specifics is yours" is better.

[creekster]

This dovetails nicely with the faith and knowledge thread. How does this SP know that fraudulent or exaggerated claims are being made?

This isn't offensive, but it does draw a bit of an eye roll. The church is at its best when it is teaching principles and at its worst when it is suggesting specific courses of action in specific situations (there are some obvious exceptions). I think the sabbath day line of thought which is essentially "here at the principles that we hope will guide you, but there decision as to specifics is yours" is better.

How do you know they don't know? Unless you think they are claiming complete inspiration or a vision it appears to me from the letter that they have received information that fraudulent practices have occurred. If so, they teach the principle of honesty, which doesn't appear to relate to porn and goes all the way back to Big Mo's tablets, and then suggests people govern themselves. I admit it seems pretty pro-active, but it is hard for me to imply they were acting incorrectly. It is also hard for me to understand why this is news. In the context of sermons given by preachers of other faiths this is no big deal.

[BigFatMeanie]

This dovetails nicely with the faith and knowledge thread. How does this SP know that fraudulent or exaggerated claims are being made?

This isn't offensive, but it does draw a bit of an eye roll. The church is at its best when it is teaching principles and at its worst when it is suggesting specific courses of action in specific situations (there are some obvious exceptions). I think the sabbath day line of thought which is essentially "here at the principles that we hope will guide you, but there decision as to specifics is yours" is better.

The SP letter specifically states that they received reports of fraudulent claims.

Isn't the specific principle of honesty, as opposed to any specific course of action, exactly what the SP emphasized in their letter?

[RobinFinderson]

My problem with it is that exaggeration is in the eye of the beholder. The woman in the article that says all she needed was a $250 carpet cleaning (not new carpet) presumable believes that her carpet has been restored to original value. But what if someone else put in brand new carpet the week before the fire? Are they entitled to brand new carpet since they lost brand new carpet?

I think this could cause a lot of contention between neighbors with similar damage claiming different losses, especially now with a religious element thrown into the already stressful situation.

I guess that I would assume that the SP would let its members figure it out on their own with their own consciences, but I can be convinced otherwise. This is my knee-jerk reaction, and it’s probably a heathenistic one at that, having been influenced by the dark side The Foyer.

This carpet example is a good one. Even if you have OLD carpet in your house, and it gets seriously damaged by water, it is reasonable to have it replaced with equally old carpet that has never been damaged by water. But the process of finding old carpet that you 1. like, and 2. is in an equivalent state of disrepair, is too burdensome, and because the claim isn't going to reimburse you for the time you spend looking for old carpet, it seems reasonable to simply replace it with new carpet. The SP would probably disagree. This is one of those situations where I think the church leader isn't overstepping his authority, however the result will probably be an increased sense of guilt among many members who claim what is reasonably theirs.

[creekster]

This carpet example is a good one. Even if you have OLD carpet in your house, and it gets seriously damaged by water, it is reasonable to have it replaced with equally old carpet that has never been damaged by water. But the process of finding old carpet that you 1. like, and 2. is in an equivalent state of disrepair, is too burdensome, and because the claim isn't going to reimburse you for the time you spend looking for old carpet, it seems reasonable to simply replace it with new carpet. The SP would probably disagree. This is one of those situations where I think the church leader isn't overstepping his authority, however the result will probably be an increased sense of guilt among many members who claim what is reasonably theirs.

Do you seriously think that anyone, ever, tries to find comparable used carpet? You are kidding, right?