The Rexburg bubble

[RC Vikings]

So I'm sitting in HP group (yes I did go) and the talk turns to prop 8 and all these old guys are sitting around talking about how we love the homosexual and they are welcome in our church anytime they want. This coming from a group of guys that the closest they have come to being around someone who is gay is when they took their wives to a Liberace concert twenty five years ago. Everybody is this room had a white shirt on and I thought to myself that anybody that was just a little different wouldn't feel comfortable in this group let alone someone who is gay. Is part of the problem retaining new members that we just make so hard to fit in and why do we do this?

[byu71]

So I'm sitting in HP group (yes I did go) and the talk turns to prop 8 and all these old guys are sitting around talking about how we love the homosexual and they are welcome in our church anytime they want. This coming from a group of guys that the closest they have come to being around someone who is gay is when they took their wives to a Liberace concert twenty five years ago. Everybody is this room had a white shirt on and I thought to myself that anybody that was just a little different wouldn't feel comfortable in this group let alone someone who is gay. Is part of the problem retaining new members that we just make so hard to fit in and why do we do this?

Opportunity for me to rant on the BYU image thing. How often do we hear, BYU is the church school and represent the church. Going independent is to give exposure.

What I don't get is that people don't understand what the exposure can end up being.

If we just let people see, then it is great. White kids, black kids, polynesian kids, kids who serve missions, kids who don't. Geez, these folks look normal.

However, if we need to speak. Tell everyone about the honor code. Let everyone know we kick people out if they make mistakes. Tell them if they have long hair, we think of you as a lesser moral person.

Members pick up on that too. So in our little meetings we love all people. We love the guy with the long hair, we love the guy with the beard, we love the homo sexual, we love the unwed mother. They are are loved as long as we can see them as becoming exactly like us. If the guy comes to church with the long hair for a year and doesn't cut it, well a good portion of the ward kisses him off. They can look to BYU as backing that their feelings are justified.

[The_Tick]

I think it is hard to fit into the culture.

Here is my example...

We go to a place called "Ridgeview Christian Church" for a youth Christmas program every year. It is on a Sunday and we actually ditch our ward for the day to go. We do this because the kids that put on the program are classmates and friends of our children. These are kids that come to mutual and church dances with our kids so we reciprocate.

We have been 3 years now, and I wear a suit there every single time. I am overdressed for their church. The pastor is wearing slacks and a long sleeve button up with no tie. No one else is in a suit.

Why do I wear a suit? That is what I am comfortable in and all I know. My kids always try to get me to wear shorts and a polo (like the rest of the folks at church) but I always wear the suit. It is what I do.

Folks that look into the LDS church have a hard time with this also. It isn't easy coming from a shorts and sandals church to shirt and tie.

[The_Tick]

Opportunity for me to rant on the BYU image thing. How often do we hear, BYU is the church school and represent the church. Going independent is to give exposure.

What I don't get is that people don't understand what the exposure can end up being.

If we just let people see, then it is great. White kids, black kids, polynesian kids, kids who serve missions, kids who don't. Geez, these folks look normal.

However, if we need to speak. Tell everyone about the honor code. Let everyone know we kick people out if they make mistakes. Tell them if they have long hair, we think of you as a lesser moral person.

Members pick up on that too. So in our little meetings we love all people. We love the guy with the long hair, we love the guy with the beard, we love the homo sexual, we love the unwed mother. They are are loved as long as we can see them as becoming exactly like us. If the guy comes to church with the long hair for a year and doesn't cut it, well a good portion of the ward kisses him off. They can look to BYU as backing that their feelings are justified.

That fact that you typed this the way you did made me laugh out loud. Good times.

[Jeff Lebowski]

One thing about this prop 8 experience is that we have learned a lot about our fellow ward members. We have some folks who have become newly empowered and enthusiastic homophobes and who can't let an opportunity pass to comment on how we are sifting the wheat from the tares, etc. But I have also been surprised to see some amazingly compassionate and open-minded comments from people who I never would have imagined saying such things. I suspect a lot of it has to do with life experiences.

[jay santos]

One thing about this prop 8 experience is that we have learned a lot about our fellow ward members. We have some folks who have become newly empowered and enthusiastic homophobes and who can't let an opportunity pass to comment on how we are sifting the wheat from the tares, etc. But I have also been surprised to see some amazingly compassionate and open-minded comments from people who I never would have imagined saying such things. I suspect a lot of it has to do with life experiences.

I'm so grateful for my primary calling. It might be the only thing helping me keep my testimony intact. Come late for sacrament. Do my primary calling. Skip stake conference. Basically the church can be anything I want it to be.

[RC Vikings]

One thing about this prop 8 experience is that we have learned a lot about our fellow ward members. We have some folks who have become newly empowered and enthusiastic homophobes and who can't let an opportunity pass to comment on how we are sifting the wheat from the tares, etc. But I have also been surprised to see some amazingly compassionate and open-minded comments from people who I never would have imagined saying such things. I suspect a lot of it has to do with life experiences.

A group member and the teacher opened up about family members who were gay and how much they loved them and cared for them and I think it helped. You hit it right on about how our perception of things comes mainly from our life experiences.

[Jacob]

One thing about this prop 8 experience is that we have learned a lot about our fellow ward members. We have some folks who have become newly empowered and enthusiastic homophobes and who can't let an opportunity pass to comment on how we are sifting the wheat from the tares, etc. But I have also been surprised to see some amazingly compassionate and open-minded comments from people who I never would have imagined saying such things. I suspect a lot of it has to do with life experiences.

I find this a little strange. I didn't learn anything about my fellow ward members from Prop 8. I've rarely heard it mentioned in my large Utah ward. I certainly haven't seen any new homophobia crop up.

As for the main post. The fact that RC thinks his HP group has never met a gay, yet openly expresses that they are welcome to their group speaks highly of them, IMO.

[Jacob]

So I'm sitting in HP group (yes I did go) and the talk turns to prop 8 and all these old guys are sitting around talking about how we love the homosexual and they are welcome in our church anytime they want. This coming from a group of guys that the closest they have come to being around someone who is gay is when they took their wives to a Liberace concert twenty five years ago. Everybody is this room had a white shirt on and I thought to myself that anybody that was just a little different wouldn't feel comfortable in this group let alone someone who is gay. Is part of the problem retaining new members that we just make so hard to fit in and why do we do this?

I don't know, but don't think so. First of all, we don't send new members to the HP group.

Second of all, it depends on where you live. If my neighbor joins the church, we don't make it hard for him to fit in. He's not much different from us. he just needs to get a decent looking white or blue shirt and a few ties to wear to church. I don't think most people feel too uncomfortable at church just Because people wear their "sunday best", nor because they don't know a lot of gay people. I'm sure the few non-members in Rexburg have had little interaction with gay people.

Also, many of us have gone to and Elton John concert more recently than a Liberace concert.

[Sleeping in EQ]

So I'm sitting in HP group (yes I did go) and the talk turns to prop 8 and all these old guys are sitting around talking about how we love the homosexual and they are welcome in our church anytime they want. This coming from a group of guys that the closest they have come to being around someone who is gay is when they took their wives to a Liberace concert twenty five years ago. Everybody is this room had a white shirt on and I thought to myself that anybody that was just a little different wouldn't feel comfortable in this group let alone someone who is gay. Is part of the problem retaining new members that we just make so hard to fit in and why do we do this?

In answer to your question, "yes." If Church members would take the Church's recent ad campaign to heart, they'd realize that the higher ups think this is a problem. I suspect Church leaders have data that tells them that cultural homogeneity is related to the retention problem.

Up to a point, there's institutional value in having some conformity in appearance and some cultural homogeneity. The pharisees among us have pushed things well beyond that point. A course correction is in order.

[UtahDan]

One thing about this prop 8 experience is that we have learned a lot about our fellow ward members. We have some folks who have become newly empowered and enthusiastic homophobes and who can't let an opportunity pass to comment on how we are sifting the wheat from the tares, etc. But I have also been surprised to see some amazingly compassionate and open-minded comments from people who I never would have imagined saying such things. I suspect a lot of it has to do with life experiences.

This couldn't be any more on the money.

[Moliere]

So I'm sitting in HP group (yes I did go) and the talk turns to prop 8 and all these old guys are sitting around talking about how we love the homosexual and they are welcome in our church anytime they want. This coming from a group of guys that the closest they have come to being around someone who is gay is when they took their wives to a Liberace concert twenty five years ago. Everybody is this room had a white shirt on and I thought to myself that anybody that was just a little different wouldn't feel comfortable in this group let alone someone who is gay. Is part of the problem retaining new members that we just make so hard to fit in and why do we do this?

I've posted some similar feelings on CB back in the day. We stress the uniform of the PH so much that when people come to church they feel totally out of place if they are not wearing a white shirt and tie with nice slacks. In my ward most PH holders wears suits and that includes the APH. When 12-17 year old kids come to church as investigators they feel out of place and they either conform or they don't come back.

I really wish we would be more lax on the uniform of the PH and on the whole Sunday dress for this matter. It won't change what I wear, but it will promote diversity among the ward and investigators will be able to blend in better and feel more comfortable. I'm sure they feel awkward being the only person wearing a polo in the whole congregation.

[UtahDan]

I'm so grateful for my primary calling. It might be the only thing helping me keep my testimony intact. Come late for sacrament. Do my primary calling. Skip stake conference. Basically the church can be anything I want it to be.

Much easier not to be confronted with the grown up members, no?

[byu71]

I've posted some similar feelings on CB back in the day. We stress the uniform of the PH so much that when people come to church they feel totally out of place if they are not wearing a white shirt and tie with nice slacks. In my ward most PH holders wears suits and that includes the APH. When 12-17 year old kids come to church as investigators they feel out of place and they either conform or they don't come back.

I really wish we would be more lax on the uniform of the PH and on the whole Sunday dress for this matter. It won't change what I wear, but it will promote diversity among the ward and investigators will be able to blend in better and feel more comfortable. I'm sure they feel awkward being the only person wearing a polo in the whole congregation.

I would be willing to wager the majority of members if they saw another member show up in a nice pair of pants and a blue dress shirt wouldn't think a thing except maybe I wish I had the guts to do that.

It would be interesting to see if more and more members in a ward started doing that, what would happen. Would people be called in an threatened. A lot of how we act I think is due to peer pressure, not actually a belief we have. I truly believe a lot of these things are of man and not God. However, they are condusive to man being able to "control" the group. Conformity and control are good methods of control.

Maybe it does come from God. He tells the leaders, look here is how you can control these folks. Maybe Ernie was inspired. In a vision God told him, I know these radical college kids are a pain in the butt. Here is how you control them.

[Jacob]

It would be interesting to see if more and more members in a ward started doing that, what would happen. Would people be called in an threatened. A lot of how we act I think is due to peer pressure, not actually a belief we have. I truly believe a lot of these things are of man and not God. However, they are condusive to man being able to "control" the group. Conformity and control are good methods of control.
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You are not being serious, right?