church assistance and ipad

[old_gregg]

Did you miss the part where the family that is having their needs met by the funds I a giving to the ward rolls in with the brand spanking new iPads? That part is the part I would like to complain about.

Of course I am free to criticize.

i absolutely agree. i don't know if it's church-wide, but members of my home stake that request help from their bishop are, while not required, strongly encouraged to take an ongoing basic financial literacy course. there should also be some firm guideline in place in terms of a cap (both in amount and how long it will be given) on who gets what, i.e. "we will help you with one mortgage payment and a trip to the bishop's storehouse. you better find a job in the meantime."

we also have a very well connected ward employment specialist, who hooks ward members with a position they know of at their employer (or elsewhere) with someone looking for a job. is this standard?

[Tim]

Big Fat Meanie has a no-no button that if anyone pushs results in a Mt. Wuapinmon event.

Mt. St. Wuapinmon will destroy your cities and clear out your forests.

[wuapinmon]

i absolutely agree. i don't know if it's church-wide, but members of my home stake that request help from their bishop are, while not required, strongly encouraged to take an ongoing basic financial literacy course. there should also be some firm guideline in place in terms of a cap (both in amount and how long it will be given) on who gets what, i.e. "we will help you with one mortgage payment and a trip to the bishop's storehouse. you better find a job in the meantime."

we also have a very well connected ward employment specialist, who hooks ward members with a position they know of at their employer (or elsewhere) with someone looking for a job. is this standard?

Alright, how would CUF help these families:

Single mother, indigent, 54, diabetic, physically disabled, Section 8 housing, 15 year old daughter, gets food stamps, welfare (what the acronym is these days). Health declining, no hope for recovery, ever. What do you do when she asks for help every three months with the electric bill? She's on a fixed income. Is it the Church's duty to help?

Single mother of six, divorced, no child support. She wants to go back to school and get an education for a career. She can't possibly afford school and childcare. She needs a 3-4 year degree. She's 42. Do you let her go into massive debt via student loans, or do you subsidize her rent and food and utilities for four years so she can make something of herself, or do you recommend that she get married, quickly?

Family of four, two kids with autism in their teens. Family lives in a good neighborhood. House flooded during Katrina. Insurance company refused to pay. Family sinks all savings into rebuilding house. Husband sees significant downturn in his business (he paints supertankers). They cut out all luxuries, but still can't pay their mortgage and their tithing. Do you help them?

[Tim]

...

My experience in branch presidencies taught me that many people make mistakes. Some people sleep around on their spouses. Some beat their kids. Some steal from their employer. And some people live an IKEA lifestyle while in law school. I find your opinions about them sort Aesop-sour-grapesish crossed with the prodigal son's brother. They are going to put far more back into the system than they ever take out. To me, that's what it's there for, what it depends on.

...

What do inexpensive modular home furnishings have to do with this?

[wuapinmon]

Mt. St. Wuapinmon will destroy your cities and clear out your forests.

Dammit, I'm a reformed volcano.

[myboynoah]

Cutesy Utah-chick ways of using all that milk. Chocolate milk, strawberry milk, custard, pudding, milkshakes (note: these brought no one to the yard).

So this is something that started in Utah? Never heard of it.

[CardiacCoug]

I love it when people claim to know what programs are for. Really? Seems to me like they're for those who get them, according to guidelines establish by your betters. Your story reminds me of the old apocryphal story about people who were immigrating to America, and they brought just enough crackers to feed them and keep them alive on the trip. Right before they pulled into New York, they realized that there was a free cafeteria included in the fare; they could've been eating well all along. I find little nobility in privation for privation's sake. It's the post-modern hair shirt.

My point being that get disgusted all you want. The system is there for those who want/need it. Church welfare is there too.

I agree with you for the most part. But it seems pretty safe to say that graduate students who receive big-time financial support from parents, spend extravagantly on cars, electronics, eating out, etc. and yet apply for and obtain government benefits are violating the spirit and intent of WIC/Medicaid even if they technically qualify for these benefits.

I don't really have a problem with graduate students taking government benefits after taking advantage of the reasonable student loan options. But I knew a few of the WIC/Medicaid grad students who took benefits they didn't seem to need and then amazingly would begrudge government welfare to the truly needy. They were outspoken anti-tax, anti-welfare types later in life or amazingly even while receiving these benefits. That kind of hypocrisy is the ridiculous thing in all of this and is not too uncommon among economically conservative Mormons (like me, although I never was in a situation to even qualify for benefits) who generally like to rail against big government.

[wuapinmon]

So this is something that started in Utah? Never heard of it.

No, it's not a Utah thing. It's just an overwrought party that involves drinking lots of WICcan milk. When I think of overwrought parties, I think of Utah women.

[CardiacCoug]

Alright, how would CUF help these families:

Single mother, indigent, 54, diabetic, physically disabled, Section 8 housing, 15 year old daughter, gets food stamps, welfare (what the acronym is these days). Health declining, no hope for recovery, ever. What do you do when she asks for help every three months with the electric bill? She's on a fixed income. Is it the Church's duty to help?

Single mother of six, divorced, no child support. She wants to go back to school and get an education for a career. She can't possibly afford school and childcare. She needs a 3-4 year degree. She's 42. Do you let her go into massive debt via student loans, or do you subsidize her rent and food and utilities for four years so she can make something of herself, or do you recommend that she get married, quickly?

Family of four, two kids with autism in their teens. Family lives in a good neighborhood. House flooded during Katrina. Insurance company refused to pay. Family sinks all savings into rebuilding house. Husband sees significant downturn in his business (he paints supertankers). They cut out all luxuries, but still can't pay their mortgage and their tithing. Do you help them?

Seems to me that all those people should receive Church financial help. These aren't even remotely the people Levin or DU are railing against.

[wuapinmon]

Seems to me that all those people should receive Church financial help. These aren't even remotely the people Levin or DU are railing against.

I'm trying to establish a baseline.

[wuapinmon]

I agree with you for the most part. But it seems pretty safe to say that graduate students who receive big-time financial support from parents, spend extravagantly on cars, electronics, eating out, etc. and yet apply for and obtain government benefits are violating the spirit and intent of WIC/Medicaid even if they technically qualify for these benefits.

If they receive big-time support from their parents, they should not qualify. They're being dishonest when they fill out the exacting and exhausting forms, because the forms include questions about familial help.

I don't really have a problem with graduate students taking government benefits after taking advantage of the reasonable student loan options. But I knew a few of the WIC/Medicaid grad students who took benefits they didn't seem to need and then amazingly would begrudge government welfare to the truly needy. They were outspoken anti-tax, anti-welfare types later in life or amazingly even while receiving these benefits. That kind of hypocrisy is the ridiculous thing in all of this and is not too uncommon among economically conservative Mormons (like me, although I never was in a situation to even qualify for benefits) who generally like to rail against big government.

These people are hypocrites and find themselves in the gall of bitterness. Dust in the wind, much like the oft-fabled seldom-seen farmer who takes subsidies and then gripes about welfare.

[ERCougar]

wuap
I really appreciated your thoughtful comments. I also liked how you focused on the good that many programs do. Many times it seems that we get so worried about the few people gaming the system, that we lose sight of all the good that giving can do. It is really easy to be judgmental of each other, and it seems like people have such different ideas of what “needs” are. I run into people who ask for material help on a daily basis, and it is a struggle for me to constantly evaluate what I feel I can and should give to these needy community members. I try to give when I can, and I try not to judge those around me who I give to. One of my favorite phrases is “For now we see through a glass,darkly;” There is so much I don’t know about my neighbors, my friends, and even my family members. I try to recognize that we are all givers and takers and to trust in people to be able to make decisions for themselves. It can be very humbling to have to ask for help, and it can seem very dehumanizing. I try to remember this when I am a giver and to make my gift a gift of Charity, versus a gift of “charity”.

faith, I think you may be my favorite poster on here.

None of us are in positions to make judgments, whether it be the person taking fast offering money to buy an iPad or the "LDS Cartel" using WIC money to get a nice car. If you want to complain in the aggregate, i.e. the LDS church fast offerings aren't going to the right people in general or the WIC eligibility requirements result in too many non-needy people getting money, then work to change the system. But if a guy with no job and a life full of stress finds his only little bit of peace and sanity in an iPad, and someone who knows his situation better than I has deemed that an ok use of money, then good for him. If he's gaming the system, he's only really hurting himself in the ways that matter.

[LA Ute]

I agree with you for the most part. But it seems pretty safe to say that graduate students who receive big-time financial support from parents, spend extravagantly on cars, electronics, eating out, etc. and yet apply for and obtain government benefits are violating the spirit and intent of WIC/Medicaid even if they technically qualify for these benefits.

I don't really have a problem with graduate students taking government benefits after taking advantage of the reasonable student loan options. But I knew a few of the WIC/Medicaid grad students who took benefits they didn't seem to need and then amazingly would begrudge government welfare to the truly needy. They were outspoken anti-tax, anti-welfare types later in life or amazingly even while receiving these benefits. That kind of hypocrisy is the ridiculous thing in all of this and is not too uncommon among economically conservative Mormons (like me, although I never was in a situation to even qualify for benefits) who generally like to rail against big government.

I think Cardiac is right on the money.

I'm trying to establish a baseline.

I think, wuap, that when it comes to fast offerings, the bishops are the ones who get to establish the baseline and they alone are accountable for how they make such decisions. (I also think you agree.) If someone sees an abuse I think there are discreet ways to get that information to the bishop, then leave the matter to him. Because I am (still) a first counselor to a great, kind and generous bishop, I co-sign fast offering checks every Sunday. Sometimes what I see seems a little surprising, but I am happy to forget about the whole thing once I sign the check. If I learned about something like the iPads Tick is talking about, I would share the information with the bishop and then forget about it. I think that's how the system is supposed to work.

[ERCougar]

But it's a new age, a new generation, a new ethos.

I'm curious--why do you think that is?

I don't doubt that you're right. I didn't think for a moment that it might be unethical for me to accept WIC money, Medicaid for my wife's pregnancy, or subsidized student loans, whereas maybe my grandfather may have. I felt I was entitled to these because I was eligible, and really didn't give it a second thought. I'm pretty financially prudent, some might say cheap, so I certainly didn't augment any extravagant lifestyle because of it, but really, it never crossed my mind that I should not take it.

So I ask, mostly because I know you're a raging liberal, why the change? I'm going to submit that I didn't think twice because our culture has lost a bit of its value for independence, in no small part due to extensive government programs. I didn't consider NOT accepting the help because I'm a citizen of the country, I needed help, and a major part of the government's role is to help its citizens in need. That wasn't so much the case 50 years ago. I'm not sure this change is a bad thing, but you seem convinced that it is, which I find ironic, given your political leanings.

[myboynoah]

No, it's not a Utah thing. It's just an overwrought party that involves drinking lots of WICcan milk. When I think of overwrought parties, I think of Utah women.

Funny.

When I think of overwrought, I think of the guy assigned to the McDo sausage patty station.