church assistance and ipad

[Levin]

In law school, many of these students were going to earn $160K within a year. Moreover, the school included within its budget an allotment for health insurance and food -- the budget that determined how much in student loans you could take out. And so those with families had a larger allowable budget. We took out more loans to pay for our children and food instead of going on Medicaid and WIC. So did every other non-LDS family we knew. It was the Medicaid and WIC LDS cartel, at least within the law school community, that perpetuated the cultural reliance on welfare.

Each situation is certainly unique and each family must evaluate for itself whether it is the right thing to take government welfare. But for those with large earning potentials, and with school budgets that allowed for increased borrowing to pay for things like children and food, I think the scales weigh more heavily toward self-reliance.

For my friends going into the humanities or teaching, I think the calculus was probably different.

But there are plenty of doctors and lawyers who are quickly paying off their student loans without a problem but who were on welfare during graduate school, and who lived very comfortable lives in graduate school.

My ancestors would only have reverted to governmental support over their dead bodies. Many worked two jobs so that they could support their families through graduate school (night shifts and weekend shifts). I couldn't do it and look at them in the eyes.

But it's a new age, a new generation, a new ethos.

[Levin]

but I wouldn't be able to pay now if I hadn't taken Medicaid.

Really? Couldn't you have taken out more student loans to pay for health insurance? At my law school, health insurance was a part of the budget that determined how much a student could borrow. And I know that is how it is, by federal regulation, at all schools. Was it just a choice not to borrow more in student loans?

[Uncle Ted]

I witnessed the same thing in school and struggled with it a lot. I worked full time to help support my family and I was bitter towards those that didn't. Now that I can look back at it with perspective I have changed my attitude and cannot say that I would honestly make the same choice had I the chance to do it again.

These programs are there for this very reason. Why should people who are seeking an education and will pay back into the system X times the amount that they take out during those few years in school not be able to take advantage of it? There is nothing wrong with it and there should be no shame among members that do. I hope that more LDS & non-LDS student families and those in bad financial situations turn to those programs so that they can become more productive citizens (and members) in the long haul.

I worked my butt off putting myself through school, accepted any financial aid I could get, and drove home on the weekends to help my sick dad on the farm but I am not convinced that government should be giving money directly to students in the form of financial aid. I believe tuition has been going up like crazy because of government financial aid increasing the demand, in part. Tuition costs have been rising faster than financial aid amounts. Maybe government money would be better spent building/expanding its colleges and universities so tuition costs could remain lower so more people can afford to go to school.

Also, I would like to see more human capital contracts. That is, I would like to see more private sector investment in students by them entering into contracts where the student agrees to pay a certain percentage of their salary for a specified number of years back to the investment group. Hell, something like this might be a better investment than the stock market. This would be like a private version of the ROTC program.

Instead, as part of the health care bill, there will actually be less private sector involvement with respect to student loans. The government believes they can do it better so they eliminated the processing fees and is adding its own call centers. Thousands of private sector jobs are being eliminated. The "savings" in the student loan cost is being redirected to fund health care. Next up, caps on student loan payments and loan forgiveness.

[Pheidippides]

Really? Couldn't you have taken out more student loans to pay for health insurance? At my law school, health insurance was a part of the budget that determined how much a student could borrow. And I know that is how it is, by federal regulation, at all schools. Was it just a choice not to borrow more in student loans?

Lol. LOL. LOL! No, no I couldn't. And to be clear, I wasn't on Medicaid. I paid my own health insurance through school. It was the rest of the family that was on it.

[Levin]

Lol. LOL. LOL! No, no I couldn't. And to be clear, I wasn't on Medicaid. I paid my own health insurance through school. It was the rest of the family that was on it.

Why couldn't you also buy health insurance as a family? My law school had different budgets for families and budgets for singles. Obviously the budgets for families accounted for health insurance for the whole family. And so we borrowed more to pay for health insurance for the whole family.

[Pheidippides]

Why couldn't you also buy health insurance as a family? My law school had different budgets for families and budgets for singles. Obviously the budgets for families accounted for health insurance for the whole family. And so we borrowed more to pay for health insurance for the whole family.

What part of "I borrowed all I could" don't you understand?

Or "Even if I could have borrowed more, I still would not have, because Medicaid was available and I was pretty sure I was going to get raped by the tax code for the next 50 years"

You can take your pick between those two answers, since your question presupposes that I should feel guilty for the second answer if the first answer was not, in fact, the case.

(Here's a hint: I don't. And I am not exaggerating when I am saying that the choice I made was the difference between utter, complete and literal bankruptcy.)

[Levin]

What part of "I borrowed all I could" don't you understand?

Or "Even if I could have borrowed more, I still would not have, because Medicaid was available and I was pretty sure I was going to get raped by the tax code for the next 50 years"

You can take your pick between those two answers, since your question presupposes that I should feel guilty for the second answer if the first answer was not, in fact, the case.

(Here's a hint: I don't. And I am not exaggerating when I am saying that the choice I made was the difference between utter, complete and literal bankruptcy.)

I don't think you should feel guilty; i don't know you or your situation from Adam.

It's interesting though that you won't admit to it being the second answer. I think that's a common mentality -- very often held by conservative, even libertarian, citizens. It's a destructive mentality, and one that contributes greatly to the fiscal crisis facing our country -- a fiscal crisis the conservatives and libertarians decry.

I think a lot of people say "can't" or "I borrowed all I could" when they don't really mean it. It's about choices and the type of people we choose to be. For some people some values are more important than others.

[beelzebabette]

I don't think you should feel guilty; i don't know you or your situation from Adam.

It's interesting though that you won't admit to it being the second answer. I think that's a common mentality -- very often held by conservative, even libertarian, citizens. It's a destructive mentality, and one that contributes greatly to the fiscal crisis facing our country -- a fiscal crisis the conservatives and libertarians decry.

I think a lot of people say "can't" or "I borrowed all I could" when they don't really mean it. It's about choices and the type of people we choose to be. For some people some values are more important than others.

I'm supportive of students in graduate school utilizing existing government programs rather than inventing new ones. Particularly if it means these students can get through school on a regular timeline and get a job.

Our doctors and lawyers (and professors, etc) shouldn't just be those who can live in Mom & Dad's basement during the summer to save rent so they can make it through graduate school claiming to be independent. Or have connections to internships through family connections. Etc, etc.

[doctorcoug]

Levin, you statements here are ignorant.

My school had one budget, married, single, or with kids, it mattered not.

Medicare (CMS) is currently raping doctors (and has been since the Clinton Administration). I will take advantage of EVERY SINGLE government program for as long as I can because of this.

Yes, I make over $50K a year. Yes, I get nearly $500 a month from the state to pay for my private health insurance.

Levin, do you file for the child tax credit?

[Pheidippides]

I don't think you should feel guilty; i don't know you or your situation from Adam.

It's interesting though that you won't admit to it being the second answer. I think that's a common mentality -- very often held by conservative, even libertarian, citizens. It's a destructive mentality, and one that contributes greatly to the fiscal crisis facing our country -- a fiscal crisis the conservatives and libertarians decry.

I think a lot of people say "can't" or "I borrowed all I could" when they don't really mean it. It's about choices and the type of people we choose to be. For some people some values are more important than others.

I think, for a guy that went to law school, you are quite poor at reading comprehension. Or quite good at putting words in the mouths of others. Either way, you're arrogant and full of shit, which goes with the career choice, I guess.

[Levin]

Shot birds flutter.

I understand my mentality is an archaic one.

It was not so long ago that taking advantage of every available welfare program was not a virtue unless it was absolutely necessary. And our standards for what is absolutely necessary has been so dumbed down so as to strip all meaning from the word necessary.

I make too much for the child tax credit, but I took it when I qualified. But equating generally available tax credits with Medicaid/WIC shows how different the mentality is today. I'm not going to pay more taxes than I have to, but I'm not going to suck at the government's nipple either.

The irony here is the non-LDS families were even more scandalized by the LDS Medicaid/WIC cartel than the few LDS families who didn't participate were. I'm not sure why the Catholic Church has maintained the self-reliance ethic but it has been so utterly lost within a certain segment of LDS culture -- relatively well-off, caucasian graduate school student families.

[creekster]

Shot birds flutter.

I understand my mentality is an archaic one.

It was not so long ago that taking advantage of every available welfare program was not a virtue unless it was absolutely necessary. And our standards for what is absolutely necessary has been so dumbed down so as to strip all meaning from the word necessary.

I make too much for the child tax credit, but I took it when I qualified. But equating generally available tax credits with Medicaid/WIC shows how different the mentality is today. I'm not going to pay more taxes than I have to, but I'm not going to suck at the government's nipple either.

The irony here is the non-LDS families were even more scandalized by the LDS Medicaid/WIC cartel than the few LDS families who didn't participate were. I'm not sure why the Catholic Church has maintained the self-reliance ethic but it has been so utterly lost within a certain segment of LDS culture -- relatively well-off, caucasian graduate school student families.

Were your student loans federally guaranteed/insured?

[beelzebabette]

Shot birds flutter.

I understand my mentality is an archaic one.

It was not so long ago that taking advantage of every available welfare program was not a virtue unless it was absolutely necessary. And our standards for what is absolutely necessary has been so dumbed down so as to strip all meaning from the word necessary.

I make too much for the child tax credit, but I took it when I qualified. But equating generally available tax credits with Medicaid/WIC shows how different the mentality is today. I'm not going to pay more taxes than I have to, but I'm not going to suck at the government's nipple either.

The irony here is the non-LDS families were even more scandalized by the LDS Medicaid/WIC cartel than the few LDS families who didn't participate were. I'm not sure why the Catholic Church has maintained the self-reliance ethic but it has been so utterly lost within a certain segment of LDS culture -- relatively well-off, caucasian graduate school student families.

In short, only the children of rich people should get good jobs.

Got it.

As for the tax credit, what is a tax credit but sucking at a government teat?

[Levin]

Our doctors and lawyers (and professors, etc) shouldn't just be those who can live in Mom & Dad's basement during the summer to save rent so they can make it through graduate school claiming to be independent. Or have connections to internships through family connections. Etc, etc.

I agree; but there are so many false choices in this area as to be nauseating.

The people buying iPods while on Medicaid also said they couldn't do without Medicaid. It's a mentality. And it's about choices.

The key is that "necessary" has been dumbed down so much so as to be devoid of meaning.

[Katy Lied]

I think, for a guy that went to law school, you are quite poor at reading comprehension. Or quite good at putting words in the mouths of others. Either way, you're arrogant and full of shit, which goes with the career choice, I guess.

I think Levin's just propounding his view. I didn't think he came across as arrogant.

Even taking out a student loan to pay insurance is still taking public money, unless your loans are not subsidized.

Just a little plug for WIC. I really like this program even though I've never been on it, used it, or know anyone on it. I used to be a cashier in a grocery in high school, and saw woman after woman come in and get really nutritious food for their baby. I really like that the program only allows you to get the best food that your baby needs, and specifies down to the percentage of milk, or juice in a product. Then, after they're no longer in the program, these same women would still make good choices in food. Its a great teaching tool, as well as being free food.