church assistance and ipad

[Levin]

Right there, I lost all respect for you in this thread.

I think I've made it clear my criticisms are with a certain set of LDS on Medicaid: those who are in graduate school in professions with large earning potentials, where the schools include in their budgets space for health insurance, and their spending choices are not indicative of requiring Medicaid (the comfortable student life).

Trying to be as self-sufficient as possible is not about the wrong kind of pride where it involves choices that can be made so that welfare is not necessary.

It's those choices I'm talking about. But still, people value virtues differently, and I can understand in some circumstances why that would be. For me, b/c of how I was raised and the examples in my life, self-sufficiency is one of the greatest virtues. It's also what ultimately in my opinion is at the heart of American exceptionalism. And to the extent America is in decline, I think we can trace it back to the departure from the principle of independence and self-sufficiency (both as a nation and of course as citizens).

In this debate, my problem stems from my experience of being good friends (still friends) with people who were on WIC and bragged about how much milk they had and how they couldn't use it all, and who talked up how great it is to have a child on Medicaid, and then went out every weekend to expensive restaurants, bought new cars, ordered leather couches, etc. And then the second they left law school, they joined large firms, became homeowners, and so the story goes. Those are the people I'm targeting.

But there are shades and variations -- choices all. I think we need to consider whether we are being honest with ourselves when we say, "I have to do it."

[YOhio]

But there are shades and variations -- choices all. I think we need to consider whether we are being honest with ourselves when we say, "I have to do it."

Hey, Levin! Long time, no see. Good to have you back.

FTR, I think you're making a lot of this up. I doubt your non-LDS classmates had any clue about whether or not the LDS families were on WIC.

[Jarid in Cedar]

Great thread!

So what I have learned:

Tick's Wife can start a simple thread and everyone else goes "Sherman's march to Atlanta"(sorry Wuap)

Levin doesn't like people bragging about sucking on the government teat.

Big Fat Meanie has a no-no button that if anyone pushs results in a Mt. Wuapinmon event

DoctorCoug is getting an anal probe by Medicaid in his state(despite not worrying about billing or collecting)

EddieJones has had a birthcontrol failure

SoonerCoug recommends a combination of birth control, salt peter, and killing innocent kittens as ways to prevent pregnancy prior to getting a job.

The_Tick works far too hard and has a heart of gold, but likes to gripe along the way.

PAC is a gentle peacemaker, but great at his job.

Niku, myself and many others have benefitted greatly from social programs on many levels and various times in life.

[Levin]

Hey, Levin! Long time, no see. Good to have you back.

FTR, I think you're making a lot of this up. I doubt your non-LDS classmates had any clue about whether or not the LDS families were on WIC.

Hey YOhio!

My non-LDS friends did know about the LDS WIC/Medicaid Cartel -- I told them.

[YOhio]

Hey YOhio!

My non-LDS friends did know about the LDS WIC/Medicaid Cartel -- I told them.

You big mouth! Maybe they felt too ashamed to tell you that they were on federal assistance because of the judgmental tone you took.

[Moliere]

Did you miss the part where the family that is having their needs met by the funds I a giving to the ward rolls in with the brand spanking new iPads? That part is the part I would like to complain about.

Of course I am free to criticize.

FTR, I think you and your wife have a legitimate beef if they are buying new iPads and Benz' while on the church dime. I have one question though. How do you know they are being supported by fast offerings?

[wuapinmon]

I think I've made it clear my criticisms are with a certain set of LDS on Medicaid: those who are in graduate school in professions with large earning potentials, where the schools include in their budgets space for health insurance, and their spending choices are not indicative of requiring Medicaid (the comfortable student life).

Trying to be as self-sufficient as possible is not about the wrong kind of pride where it involves choices that can be made so that welfare is not necessary.

It's those choices I'm talking about. But still, people value virtues differently, and I can understand in some circumstances why that would be. For me, b/c of how I was raised and the examples in my life, self-sufficiency is one of the greatest virtues. It's also what ultimately in my opinion is at the heart of American exceptionalism. And to the extent America is in decline, I think we can trace it back to the departure from the principle of independence and self-sufficiency (both as a nation and of course as citizens).

In this debate, my problem stems from my experience of being good friends (still friends) with people who were on WIC and bragged about how much milk they had and how they couldn't use it all, and who talked up how great it is to have a child on Medicaid, and then went out every weekend to expensive restaurants, bought new cars, ordered leather couches, etc. And then the second they left law school, they joined large firms, became homeowners, and so the story goes. Those are the people I'm targeting.

But there are shades and variations -- choices all. I think we need to consider whether we are being honest with ourselves when we say, "I have to do it."

I don't think America is in decline; I disagree wholeheartedly, with an informed opinion.

As to the WICcans (as we called them), it used to bug me too when they would have "milk parties" to use all the milk they had accumulated.

But, John 8 and all that. I pay a fast offering because I want to help people. It's really good that I don't get to allocate them, because there would never be any money left. WIC does so much good that I can't complain. Food stamps feed lots of people.

My experience in branch presidencies taught me that many people make mistakes. Some people sleep around on their spouses. Some beat their kids. Some steal from their employer. And some people live an IKEA lifestyle while in law school. I find your opinions about them sort Aesop-sour-grapesish crossed with the prodigal son's brother. They are going to put far more back into the system than they ever take out. To me, that's what it's there for, what it depends on.

Our traditions of self-sufficiency have proven ill-advised in a modern information-based economy. Aside from Robin, I don't think any of us are in a position to grow our own. Whether you like it or not, your affluence is at the expense of someone else. You can try and prove me wrong, but I can take you to half the countries in this hemisphere and show you how you're eating off the backs, blood, sweat, and tears of many a peasant. American prosperity is at the expense of others. I'm not opposed to that, but I'm not prideful or naive enough to say that these core values that you want to sniff out of the past are wholly and simply applicable to our day. As if the frontier still existed.

[myboynoah]

I don't think America is in decline; I disagree wholeheartedly, with an informed opinion.

As to the WICcans (as we called them), it used to bug me too when they would have "milk parties" to use all the milk they had accumulated.

But, John 8 and all that. I pay a fast offering because I want to help people. It's really good that I don't get to allocate them, because there would never be any money left. WIC does so much good that I can't complain. Food stamps feed lots of people.

My experience in branch presidencies taught me that many people make mistakes. Some people sleep around on their spouses. Some beat their kids. Some steal from their employer. And some people live an IKEA lifestyle while in law school. I find your opinions about them sort Aesop-sour-grapesish crossed with the prodigal son's brother. They are going to put far more back into the system than they ever take out. To me, that's what it's there for, what it depends on.

Our traditions of self-sufficiency have proven ill-advised in a modern information-based economy. Aside from Robin, I don't think any of us are in a position to grow our own. Whether you like it or not, your affluence is at the expense of someone else. You can try and prove me wrong, but I can take you to half the countries in this hemisphere and show you how you're eating off the backs, blood, sweat, and tears of many a peasant. American prosperity is at the expense of others. I'm not opposed to that, but I'm not prideful or naive enough to say that these core values that you want to sniff out of the past are wholly and simply applicable to our day. As if the frontier still existed.

What does one do at a "milk party?"

[YOhio]

What does one do at a "milk party?"

Milk parties are the breast!

[il Padrino Ute]

Milk parties are the breast!

He'll be here all week folks.

Unfortunately.

[SteelBlue]

This thread reminds me of a funny story. When I was working with the YM several years back we had a kid who came from a very different family. The kind of family who was ALWAYS asking for help from everybody (I had no idea if they were getting help financially) but never showed up to help anyone else. I will admit to wondering if they attended church for the sole purpose of getting financial and physical help as they just didn't seem very interested otherwise and I will admit that it was pretty judgmental of me. Anyway, I picked this kid up for an activity one time and then we drove and picked up another adult. When the guy we were picking up got into the car this kid (14 or so) says "wow, that's a sweet house, did the church get you into that?"

[DU Ute]

My wife worked 40 hours a week while I was in law school. We waited until I had almost graduated to have our second child. When the wife of a classmate bragged that they had saved enough to make the down payment on a house after not working and getting food stamps and medicaid for three years I thought cUTEy was going to rip her heart out. She showed a great deal of restraint.

These kind of people disgust me. These programs are for people who have no other options, not as a way to supplement your lifestyle. Especially not when you are also being heavily subsidised by mommy and daddy.

[myboynoah]

My wife worked 40 hours a week while I was in law school. We waited until I had almost graduated to have our second child. When the wife of a classmate bragged that they had saved enough to make the down payment on a house after not working and getting food stamps and medicaid for three years I thought cUTEy was going to rip her heart out. She showed a great deal of restraint.

These kind of people disgust me. These programs are for people who have no other options, not as a way to supplement your lifestyle. Especially not when you are also being heavily subsidised by mommy and daddy.

What do you care? Utah's going to the Pac 10!

[faith]

But, John 8 and all that. I pay a fast offering because I want to help people. It's really good that I don't get to allocate them, because there would never be any money left. WIC does so much good that I can't complain. Food stamps feed lots of people.

wuap
I really appreciated your thoughtful comments. I also liked how you focused on the good that many programs do. Many times it seems that we get so worried about the few people gaming the system, that we lose sight of all the good that giving can do. It is really easy to be judgmental of each other, and it seems like people have such different ideas of what “needs” are. I run into people who ask for material help on a daily basis, and it is a struggle for me to constantly evaluate what I feel I can and should give to these needy community members. I try to give when I can, and I try not to judge those around me who I give to. One of my favorite phrases is “For now we see through a glass,darkly;” There is so much I don’t know about my neighbors, my friends, and even my family members. I try to recognize that we are all givers and takers and to trust in people to be able to make decisions for themselves. It can be very humbling to have to ask for help, and it can seem very dehumanizing. I try to remember this when I am a giver and to make my gift a gift of Charity, versus a gift of “charity”.

[wuapinmon]

What does one do at a "milk party?"

Cutesy Utah-chick ways of using all that milk. Chocolate milk, strawberry milk, custard, pudding, milkshakes (note: these brought no one to the yard).

My wife worked 40 hours a week while I was in law school. We waited until I had almost graduated to have our second child. When the wife of a classmate bragged that they had saved enough to make the down payment on a house after not working and getting food stamps and medicaid for three years I thought cUTEy was going to rip her heart out. She showed a great deal of restraint.

These kind of people disgust me. These programs are for people who have no other options, not as a way to supplement your lifestyle. Especially not when you are also being heavily subsidised by mommy and daddy.

I love it when people claim to know what programs are for. Really? Seems to me like they're for those who get them, according to guidelines establish by your betters. Your story reminds me of the old apocryphal story about people who were immigrating to America, and they brought just enough crackers to feed them and keep them alive on the trip. Right before they pulled into New York, they realized that there was a free cafeteria included in the fare; they could've been eating well all along. I find little nobility in privation for privation's sake. It's the post-modern hair shirt.

Remember the guy on the Apprentice who gave up immunity because he felt secure in his performance. Trump fired him on the spot. Why give up an advantage? A benefit? A hand up?

There's an old episode of Frasier wherein Frasier lends Roz (hubba hubba!) some money, and then she comes in with all kinds of expensive purchases. He thought she needed the money for something 'important' (his own mistake) and he gets all vexed over what he thinks she's doing with 'his' money. She repays him right on time, but not before he completely embarrasses himself by accusing her, incorrectly, of being irresponsible. My point being that get disgusted all you want. The system is there for those who want/need it. Church welfare is there too.