I learned in church today

[Non Sequitur]

Sure, that makes sense and I think people are listening to your opinion and the response from the parents is "It's not as simple as you seem to think it is." and "Show a little empathy for the parents."

The thing that has surprised me the most about being a parent is how each kid is unique and how each kid reacts totally differently to each parenting strategy. They really are their own people and impossible to control at times.

Not to dig up an old thread (but I will anyway ) but the example of being irritated because kids are crying and making noise on the airplane just kills me. Nobody wants the kids to shut up any more than the parents and sometimes it's just not possible. Same thing probably goes for Sacrament Meeting.

Most good people like you in those situations think, "Oh those poor parents, that's a tough situation to be in with kids that won't be quiet." They don't think "Why are they such bad parents who can't shut their kids up so I can enjoy this flight or Sacrament Meeting a little more?"

Yeah, and a lot of kids are a pain in the ass because their parents are either overly indulgent and too lazy to keep their kids in check. And I'm not talking about infants crying on a plane, that's unavoidable, and no one is going to blame the parents for that. But if I'm at Applebees's for an evening of fine dining, and some 7 year old is screaming down the aisles, chasing his little sister, that's on the parents.

[ERCougar]

I don't expect agreement, just respect and civility. You've abandoned both of those today.

Assumptions, assumptions! The fault is completely on you on this, Tim!

[Tim]

Yeah, and a lot of kids are a pain in the ass because their parents are either overly indulgent and too lazy to keep their kids in check. And I'm not talking about infants crying on a plane, that's unavoidable, and no one is going to blame the parents for that. But if I'm at Applebees's for an evening of fine dining, and some 7 year old is screaming down the aisles, chasing his little sister, that's on the parents.

You'll be praised for your opinion here while I've been ostracized for saying the same exact thing. Double standard...

[CardiacCoug]

Again... assumptions, not reality. The fault is completely on you on this, Cardiac, and you need to re-evaluate your approach to reading other peoples' posts if you can't do it honestly and with an open mind. All you're doing is smearing me in the process. You make the mistakes and I pay the consequences...

Sorry, Tim. Try not to take anything personally -- everybody I know on this board thinks you're a great guy and I don't mean anything as any sort of personal attack.

You're right that I don't remember the kids on airplane thread in detail. I have seen a lot of bad behavior from kids on airplanes and can't seem to recall any parent who just put headphones on and ignored it, but sure that might happen.

With that last part of my post about empathy for the parents I was actually thinking of Viking and his post today, not you. Again, I think you perceive these posts as an attack against you and I don't mean them that way at all.

[Tim]

Assumptions, assumptions! The fault is completely on you on this, Tim!

Now you're acting like a 2 year old. Maybe your parents should take YOU out of the chapel.

[Pheidippides]

I don't expect agreement, just respect and civility. You've abandoned both of those today.

[ame]http://i520.photobucket.com/albums/w324/THEWHIZY3K/butthurt-form.jpg[/ame]

[Tim]

Sorry, Tim. Try not to take anything personally -- everybody I know on this board thinks you're a great guy and I don't mean anything as any sort of personal attack.

You're right that I don't remember the kids on airplane thread in detail. I have seen a lot of bad behavior from kids on airplanes and can't seem to recall any parent who just put headphones on and ignored it, but sure that might happen.

With that last part of my post about empathy for the parents I was actually thinking of Viking and his post today, not you. Again, I think you perceive these posts as an attack against you and I don't mean them that way at all.

No worries, dude. Have a lovely week.

[Tim]

http://i520.photobucket.com/albums/w...thurt-form.jpg

I had a small hemorrhoid several years back. No interest in any more butthurt, thank you very much!

[Babs]

Sorry, Tim. Try not to take anything personally.

I just don't get the recurring obsession with dumping on families and parents. I'm sure it must be hard to make a conscious decision to ignore the primary directive of the church. Otoh, your brother and SoonerUte also decided not to have kids, and I don't think I've seen either one of them offer such scathing commentary about kids and child-rearing, certainly not on a regular basis.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Tim, the reaction you are getting here can be explained fairly simply. There are two things that are inevitably experienced by just about any parent.

1. You are in a public place and having a rough time keeping your kids under control and some stranger thinks it would be a good idea to come up and tell you what a lousy parent you are, thus making your bad day even worse. It would be especially disheartening to experience this at church.

2. Realizing that parenting is far more complex than you ever expected and feeling sheepish about all of that silent judgment you passed on parents as a single person.

That's not to say that the backlash you are getting is entirely fair, but this is the underlying dynamic. You will sympathize someday.

[Tim]

I just don't get the recurring obsession with dumping on families and parents. I'm sure it must be hard to make a conscious decision to ignore the primary directive of the church. Otoh, your brother and SoonerUte also decided not to have kids, and I don't think I've seen either one of them offer such scathing commentary about kids and child-rearing, certainly not on a regular basis.

I'm not suggesting that your reference to making conscious decisions was pointed in my direction, but I'd like to clarify just in case that we haven't made that decision. We aim to have a child (or adopt) at some point, just not right now. We believe that while you can never really be ready for a child, and that the timing will never be perfect, at the very least you shouldn't have a child until you want to have one. I hope my practicality on the matter isn't shouted down by the same old people who think I'm yet again wrong about something I apparently know zero about.

[fusnik]

Apparently you're either not actually digging up that thread and re-reading it, or you're simply not very good at reading words that are actually in a post and you're using your foggy memory to "remember" how you think the thread was. I never stated in that thread that I had an issue with crying children. I had an issue with parents doing nothing about the crying child.

Really?

Sorry, I struggle in this regard. There's nothing worse on an airplane than a baby that won't stop crying. Some people have genuinely sensitive ears and the sound of babies crying is painful. Their flight is ruined when a mother brings a baby too young to be flying and that baby screams the whole time.

Really?

I'm actually not kidding. Nothing ruins a flight like a screaming baby. If you can't keep your child quiet you shouldn't be flying.

So misunderstood!

[CardiacCoug]

I just don't get the recurring obsession with dumping on families and parents. I'm sure it must be hard to make a conscious decision to ignore the primary directive of the church. Otoh, your brother and SoonerUte also decided not to have kids, and I don't think I've seen either one of them offer such scathing commentary about kids and child-rearing, certainly not on a regular basis.

True. For all of Sooner's stories and strong opinions I can't recall him being critical of parents either online or in person. I'm hoping he and his wife will finally have a kid one of these years.

[Non Sequitur]

Tim, the reaction you are getting here can be explained fairly simply. There are two things that are inevitably experienced by just about any parent.

1. You are in a public place and having a rough time keeping your kids under control and some stranger thinks it would be a good idea to come up and tell you what a lousy parent you are, thus making your bad day even worse. It would be especially disheartening to experience this at church.

2. Realizing that parenting is far more complex than you ever expected and feeling sheepish about all of that silent judgment you passed on parents as a single person.

That's not to say that the backlash you are getting is entirely fair, but this is the underlying dynamic. You will sympathize someday.

It's not that complex. If your kid cries you take them out to the foyer. If they keep crying you take them home. I can't tell you how many times I took my kids home from Church...almost always happened when the Niners were playing.

[ERCougar]

Now you're acting like a 2 year old.

I know you love kids, so....Thanks!