I learned in church today

[chrisrenrut]

LOL. I recall going to my official BSA venture crew advisor training and coming back thinking that we weren't implementing the full program. I approached the YWP about seeing if there were any YW that were interested in joining our venture crew to make it co-ed like the ones I learned about in the training. I already knew that my daughters were. They were tired of endless talking about how they were to marry a RM in the temple, how to plan their wedding, and the other rather mindless YW activities. They wanted to shoot guns, climb rock walls, do scuba, etc. I was quickly shot down with my attempt to implement the full scouting program. In fact, the YWP told on me to the bishop.

Our YW this year chose to go to a high adventure camp instead of a normal girls camp this year. I guess the high adventure camps are marketing to YW groups more now, not just scouts/YM. But it's not a coed ward camp, the Boy Scout are apparently very excited to go to East Fork of the Bear, or what ever that boring scout camp is called now.

[Uncle Ted]

Well, no. The problem is that the bastardized Eagle-at-all-costs merit-badge-driven adult-planned crap that passes for YM program isn't scouting. It isn't even the YM program. The adults in the YM program are there for one purpose, and one purpose only: to guide the YM as the quorums run their own damn program. Not to take over. Not to plan crap for the YM. But to guide and counsel and help the YM in their own development. Even Mutual is supposed to be planned and run by the youth, with little adult interference. Scouting is just a way to help the adults guide the youth.

Yeah, letting the boys plan their own stuff is great. Once the scouts wanted to know more about computer networking so we spent an evening rewriting the family history center's computers. To test our new network we fired up Starcraft/Warcraft and the LAN party started. It was such a success the boys scheduled "computer networking night" once a quarter.

[Moliere]

In a volunteer (non-LDS) unit all that stuff is taken care of and not by scoutmaster or any of his assistants. Sure the scoutmaster and his assistants show up to the roundtable meetings but they include dinner.

We've tried to staff out scout committee in an attempt to take some of the burden off of the YM presidency, however the attempts have been in vain. We have 4 people on the committee that are not either in the YMP or bishopric and only one of them shows up to meetings and helps. The others don't care, but of course they didn't volunteer. Any attempts to bring people into the committee that would actual do something are also in vain since those people are always used in other demanding callings.

The scout committee is like the ward mission, it gets the dregs of the ward.

[cowboy]

When I was in YM, our scout committee did a good job. Our advancement chair was super organized and had a son in scouts, so we had regular meetings and advanced a lot of kids. My opinion of scouts changed during that calling.

The problem with scouts is that it is more work to guide the kids than it is to just plan and do everything for them. If the program is run as it should be, the kids plan their activities and do most of the work, acquiring really valuable leadership and management skills in the process. Unfortunately, most leaders don't want to spend the time following up on kids to make sure they are carrying out their assignments, etc. It's much harder to make a kid work than it is to do the work yourself. So kids get used to being told what to do, leaders get used to having to come up with ideas, and everyone has a bad attitude because the experience provides little more than a social hour every week. For the record, I was never successful in breaking this cycle.

[Uncle Ted]

When I was in YM, our scout committee did a good job. Our advancement chair was super organized and had a son in scouts, so we had regular meetings and advanced a lot of kids. My opinion of scouts changed during that calling.

The problem with scouts is that it is more work to guide the kids than it is to just plan and do everything for them. If the program is run as it should be, the kids plan their activities and do most of the work, acquiring really valuable leadership and management skills in the process. Unfortunately, most leaders don't want to spend the time following up on kids to make sure they are carrying out their assignments, etc. It's much harder to make a kid work than it is to do the work yourself. So kids get used to being told what to do, leaders get used to having to come up with ideas, and everyone has a bad attitude because the experience provides little more than a social hour every week. For the record, I was never successful in breaking this cycle.

Once, the Venture Crew plan a little float trip down the river/lake. They built a raft out of those blue water barrels that some family was using for emergency water storage and we took their creation out to the lake. Given that the raft would just hold the boys and they all had life preservers (not to mention two of the boys were on the swim team) we let them take the thing out themselves. We just pulled up to the viewing area, watched, and ate our lunch. It was completely planned and implemented by the boys. What could go wrong?

After about 30 minutes of watching them paddle the thing around in circles a boat full of girls dressed in bikinis pulled up next to them. The next thing we knew they had abandoned their ship and were aboard the boat with the girls. We didn't see them again for at least a couple of hours and their raft drifted away to never be seen again. When they did finally show up to the dock I saw exactly why they had quickly abandoned their vessel. These girls were hot.

The YMP tried to turn the whole thing into some kind of learning experience lecturing to them for the next 30 minutes. He then turned to me and asked if I had anything to add. I said, "I have only one question. Did any of you get their numbers?"

[Paperback Writer]

When I was in YM, our scout committee did a good job. Our advancement chair was super organized and had a son in scouts, so we had regular meetings and advanced a lot of kids. My opinion of scouts changed during that calling.

The problem with scouts is that it is more work to guide the kids than it is to just plan and do everything for them. If the program is run as it should be, the kids plan their activities and do most of the work, acquiring really valuable leadership and management skills in the process. Unfortunately, most leaders don't want to spend the time following up on kids to make sure they are carrying out their assignments, etc. It's much harder to make a kid work than it is to do the work yourself. So kids get used to being told what to do, leaders get used to having to come up with ideas, and everyone has a bad attitude because the experience provides little more than a social hour every week. For the record, I was never successful in breaking this cycle.

IMO, the problem is the lack of YM-to-YM mentoring in the LDS version of scouting. Most 12-13 year-olds need a lot of guidence from adults and as you correctly point out, it's much easier for adults just to do it themselves. The YM-to-YM mentoring doesn't occur because YM are split up into quorums. A 13 year-old cannot mentor a 12 year-old very successfully. In the non-LDS scouting world, all scouts from 11 to 18 are together so a 16-year old can mentor 11-12 year-olds.

My first two years of scouting were spent in a Methodist supported troop since we lived in a small branch with hardly any YM. My family then moved and we were in a large ward with lots of youth and an LDS run Boy Scout Troop. I enjoyed and learned more during my first two years of scouting than the next five years. It was such a bad experience that my two younger brothers were enrolled in a Lutheran supported troop. In retrospect, I wish I had done the same with my three sons. I served in Scouts for a dozen years while my sons were scout age, and like you, I was not successful in breaking the cycle.

[smokymountainrain]

FIFY.

ha.

[byu71]

I have a grandson who is a pretty darn good baseball player. They are practicing all the time. End in October and start indoor in January. He also is a pretty good BB player. With all the time spent in those area's and home work, he just doesn't have time for Scouts.

More than once leaders in the ward have told my son he has his priorites wrong for his kid and someday his kid will pay the consequences.

[smokymountainrain]

I have a grandson who is a pretty darn good baseball player. They are practicing all the time. End in October and start indoor in January. He also is a pretty good BB player. With all the time spent in those area's and home work, he just doesn't have time for Scouts.

More than once leaders in the ward have told my son he has his priorites wrong for his kid and someday his kid will pay the consequences.

In my experience this is extremely rare. Most leaders, even the huge nerd scouters, understand and are even supportive in regard to kids being involved in sports.

[BlueK]

[/COLOR]Yes, most parents just want to drop their kids off at the church and not much to do with scouting.



As scoutmaster I got pushback from the ward/stake leadership just trying to merge the two troops that meet in the same building. I never understood the logic for their argument. Something to do with the scouting troop being tied to the priesthood quorum or some other "unity" BS.

I worked for BSA national in Irving for a few years, and I can say that you just stumbled into what is a pretty old debate between different schools of thought both within the church and the BSA. Both recognize that the youth would probably have a better experience if LDS troops were larger, but currently both organizations also have some motivations to keep the status quo.

From the BSA side I can tell you that I once had a conversation about this with a BSA district executive who is LDS. While he recognized that the idea of combining LDS troops has merit as far as the overall experience goes, it's something he basically doesn't want to happen because the BSA promotes DEs who see the number of members and units increase on their watch, rather than decrease. So it's not just the church that is pushing back on your idea. If anything, the local professional BSA leadership wants to avoid that even more than the church does. In some areas the church has already started running scouting on the stake level or at least at the meetinghouse level. I think this will happen more often in LDS stakes in the coming years, but it will probably be a very gradual change.

[clackamascoug]

I worked for BSA national in Irving for a few years, and I can say that you just stumbled into what is a pretty old debate between different schools of thought both within the church and the BSA. Both recognize that the youth would probably have a better experience if LDS troops were larger, but currently both organizations also have some motivations to keep the status quo.

From the BSA side I can tell you that I once had a conversation about this with a BSA district executive who is LDS. While he recognized that the idea of combining LDS troops has merit as far as the overall experience goes, it's something he basically doesn't want to happen because the BSA promotes DEs who see the number of members and units increase on their watch, rather than decrease. So it's not just the church that is pushing back on your idea. If anything, the local professional BSA leadership wants to avoid that even more than the church does. In some areas the church has already started running scouting on the stake level or at least at the meetinghouse level. I think this will happen more often in LDS stakes in the coming years, but it will probably be a very gradual change.

Good info. A decade ago our stake consolidated the Scouting program to the Stake level. Complete disaster, attendance dropped 65% and they gave up after two years and sent it back to the ward levels where it got back on track. I'm pretty sure the whole thing has found its water level and it is what it is. Better than nothing but barely.

[BlueK]

Good info. A decade ago our stake consolidated the Scouting program to the Stake level. Complete disaster, attendance dropped 65% and they gave up after two years and sent it back to the ward levels where it got back on track. I'm pretty sure the whole thing has found its water level and it is what it is. Better than nothing but barely.

What about having it done at the stake level do you think led to the problems?

[clackamascoug]

What about having it done at the stake level do you think led to the problems?

I hate scouting. I don't desire to speak any further on the matter.

Nothing Personal. I think you're potentially a nice fellow and wish you peace on your earthly sojourn.

[creekster]

I hate scouting. I don't desire to speak any further on the matter.

Nothing Personal. I think you're potentially a nice fellow and wish you peace on your earthly sojourn.

Is that wish just for THIS earth or for all of them? Because if it's all of them then somewhere you just wished peace on that earth's version of Hitler. But if it's not, then that's sort of a petty approach since he is so good or at least above average in so many places.

[Uncle Ted]

I worked for BSA national in Irving for a few years, and I can say that you just stumbled into what is a pretty old debate between different schools of thought both within the church and the BSA. Both recognize that the youth would probably have a better experience if LDS troops were larger, but currently both organizations also have some motivations to keep the status quo.

From the BSA side I can tell you that I once had a conversation about this with a BSA district executive who is LDS. While he recognized that the idea of combining LDS troops has merit as far as the overall experience goes, it's something he basically doesn't want to happen because the BSA promotes DEs who see the number of members and units increase on their watch, rather than decrease. So it's not just the church that is pushing back on your idea. If anything, the local professional BSA leadership wants to avoid that even more than the church does. In some areas the church has already started running scouting on the stake level or at least at the meetinghouse level. I think this will happen more often in LDS stakes in the coming years, but it will probably be a very gradual change.

This explains that answer of "no" that I got a lot better than the lame excuses I received instead.

We did ignore that answer, btw, and unofficially combined the "meetinghouse" troops on a number of activities including scout camp. It worked out great. Attendance, if anything, improved.