Sunstone Borderlander Column

[CardiacCoug]

I'm not sure that mistaken is any better. Might I offer, "non-noetic?"

Thanks. I'll have to look that up and get back to you.

[byu71]

If Dustin and his girlfriend went to a marriage counselor, my bet is he/she would advise Dustin to move on. Their personalities are not a match and other issues are going to develop after marriage, IMHO.

There are other things later on she is going to "know" and he might not. If somehow they hooked up and he felt his opinions were subservient to hers because she has the "spirit", well I would be hesitant to enter a relationship like that from either of their sides.

[RobinFinderson]

I liked Cardiac's post, and see nothing proud about it. Cardiac obviously comes from a different epistemological place than those people who use language like, "I know the church is true." In every case where people claim that their testimony is a 'known,' what they are really saying is that they don't have very high standards for claiming to know...

How do you know?

It was a spiritual manifestation.

How do you know that the manifestation was true?

Because I felt it.

And why is that feeling not subject to error like any other feeling?

Because... I just know that it isn't. I can't explain, but I just know.

... every time. Maybe someone will claim to have seen something that could be explained in no other way, but there are always other possible explanations. A 'knowing faith' wouldn't be so insulting to the people who require a bit more epistemological rigor if the 'knowing believers' didn't find themselves (and position themselves) higher up the church's unspoken social pecking order. This is the real point of Cardiac's post. Folks who lack 'knowing faith' have to stop ceding ground to those who 'know.'

[Spicy McHaggis]

"Knowing" and "believing" are two completely different things that are often confused when discussing religion.
Nobody can "know" it's true. They "believe" it's true and don't understand or aren't willing to understand the huge difference.

You can believe just about anything, no matter how crazy it is to more rational people.

[Indy Coug]

"Knowing" and "believing" are two completely different things that are often confused when discussing religion.
Nobody can "know" it's true. They "believe" it's true and don't understand or aren't willing to understand the huge difference.

You can believe just about anything, no matter how crazy it is to more rational people.

Do you know the Theory of Evolution is true?

[RobinFinderson]

Do you know the Theory of Evolution is true?

We can know what the theory of evolution IS and we can know what the evidence is that supports it, and all of this knowledge can be examined and accepted or rejected using the same tools that nearly all human beings share. In contrast, spiritual 'knowledge' requires some special conduit that is different for different people, on which there is wide debate about what even constitutes spiritual knowledge, and which is received uniquely by every person who lays claim to spiritual knowledge. Apples and oranges.

[Indy Coug]

The point I'm making is that there are all sorts of things we don't understand and we certainly don't KNOW, but that we have had enough experience with to effectively make them working assumptions.

If I apply Gospel principles in my life and see the positive effects they have on me and those around me that are also applying them, then I have enough of a basis to know they are true.

If I have numerous spiritual experiences that go beyond the normal everyday human experience, that further reinforces the conclusions reached from everyday application of gospel principles.

As the sample size grows, the "data" is increasingly credible.

For those that want to quibble about "knowing", it seems to me that they are uncomfortable with alphas of 0.1 or 0.01 or 0.00001 being equated to 0.0

[LA Ute]

I blame Moroni. Apparently all that stuff about "by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things" has caused no end of confusion.

[wuapinmon]

I blame Moroni. Apparently all that stuff about "by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things" has caused no end of confusion.

No translation is perfect. ¿Sabes?

[LA Ute]

No translation is perfect. ¿Sabes?

Absolutamente. But just go to the scriptures on-line and search for "know." In our church (and maybe in others) we use that word in a particular sense, which I think is one of the definitions in any dictionary (I have not checked). I am not going to argue about it any more. I understand the issues many seem to have with the religious use of "know," but I think their concern is quite misplaced.

[Donuthole]

Absolutamente. But just go to the scriptures on-line and search for "know." In our church (and maybe in others) we use that word in a particular sense, which I think is one of the definitions in any dictionary (I have not checked). I am not going to argue about it any more. I understand the issues many seem to have with the religious use of "know," but I think their concern is quite misplaced.

This conversation reminds me of one of the issues faced by the Elders who served in the Polochic valley in my mission, where the natives speak K'ekchi. Apparently in K'ekchi, the word "believe" and the word "know" are interchangeable, i.e. there was no difference between saying the phrase "I believe this is true" and "I know this is true."

[wuapinmon]

This conversation reminds me of one of the issues faced by the Elders who served in the Polochic valley in my mission, where the natives speak K'ekchi. Apparently in K'ekchi, the word "believe" and the word "know" are interchangeable, i.e. there was no difference between saying the phrase "I believe this is true" and "I know this is true."

In Spanish, it would be perfectly acceptable to answer a question in court with, "Creo que sí." I don't think an attorney in English would be happy with:

--Did you or did you not see Mr. White enter the bank with an M-16 at 3PM on March 30, 1996?

--I believe so.

[Donuthole]

In Spanish, it would be perfectly acceptable to answer a question in court with, "Creo que sí." I don't think an attorney in English would be happy with:

--Did you or did you not see Mr. White enter the bank with an M-16 at 3PM on March 30, 1996?

--I believe so.

Right, but you could follow that up with a question to distinguish (Crees o sabes?) In K'ekche that wouldn't work, since you'd essentially be asking "Crees o crees?" Perhaps I was unclear when I said "interchangeable". They are actually exactly the same word.

[jay santos]

Right, but you could follow that up with a question to distinguish (Crees o sabes?) In K'ekche that wouldn't work, since you'd essentially be asking "Crees o crees?" Perhaps I was unclear when I said "interchangeable". They are actually exactly the same word.

I found something less interesting than Indy and me talking stats.

[DapperDan]

I found something less interesting than Indy and me.

Fixed.