Sunstone Borderlander Column

[CardiacCoug]

I used to really look forward to reading Jeff Burton's Borderlander column in Sunstone magazine.

Lately, though, I find it infuriating the way the Borderlanders featured in the column seem to assume that they are inferior to true believers because they don't claim to know the unknowable.

Here's an excerpt from the latest Sunstone, which was about Borderlanders trying to find a religiously compatible mate:

From Dustin (a young Borderlander who has lost his "knowing" testimony but wants to remain active in the Church and would like to get his "knowing" testimony back or at least find a satisfying arrangement so he could stay in the Church): I have a girlfriend whom I really love. She is an "Iron Rod," to use Richard Poll's term, and doesn't really know or understand where I stand. I have struggled deeply with a desire to be what she wants while retaining my own integrity. I cannot make myself believe in the Church like I used to. And trust me, I want to believe. I want to know that the Church is true. I want to be an "Iron Rod." But wanting it doesn't make it so. So I remain frustrated. I remain fearful that my friends will misjudge me. I am afraid my girlfriend will dump me (which might be a relief in the end?). I have decided that I want to stick with the Church. I believe in God and have my questions about Christ, but I know what good the Church can do, and I want to be part of that. But what should I do about my girlfriend?

After reading obsequious stuff like this, I just want to scream at young Dustin and others like him: "Why on earth do you feel inferior to your girlfriend and other true believers when you're the sane and honest one in this situation? It's your girlfriend who is living in the fantasy world, claiming to admire the Emporer's clothes when he is standing there naked as a jaybird. There is no such thing as a 'knowing testimony' -- just millions of people who are either less honest or more deluded than you are. Just stay in the Church if you want to stay and don't ever take a backseat to those who either dishonestly or delusionally claim to know the unknowable. NOBODY KNOWS! NOBODY KNOWS!

<rant over>

[grapevine]

If you listen to the Spirit you will not doubt the church, and how will people who question the spirit be more faithful than those that listen since the Spirit does not contradict itself? Between the Lines by Joseph Fielding McConkie has a good read on that.

People that listen to the Holy Spirit will not doubt the church since the Lord is no Respector of Persons and his house is a house of order and not of confusion. I have no doubt to share with skeptics.

[DU Ute]

WHY CAN'T YOU JUST REALIZE YOU ARE BETTER THAN ALL THOSE INSANE, DISHONEST PEOPLE!?!?!?

[Goatnapper'96]

I used to really look forward to reading Jeff Burton's Borderlander column in Sunstone magazine.

Lately, though, I find it infuriating the way the Borderlanders featured in the column seem to assume that they are inferior to true believers because they don't claim to know the unknowable.

Here's an excerpt from the latest Sunstone, which was about Borderlanders trying to find a religiously compatible mate:



After reading obsequious stuff like this, I just want to scream at young Dustin and others like him: "Why on earth do you feel inferior to your girlfriend and other true believers when you're the sane and honest one in this situation? It's your girlfriend who is living in the fantasy world, claiming to admire the Emporer's clothes when he is standing there naked as a jaybird. There is no such thing as a 'knowing testimony' -- just millions of people who are either less honest or more deluded than you are. Just stay in the Church if you want to stay and don't ever take a backseat to those who either dishonestly or delusionally claim to know the unknowable. NOBODY KNOWS! NOBODY KNOWS!

<rant over>

LOL! This is a wonderfully funny post.

A wise man once said "pride is being concerned with WHO is right, humility is being concerned with WHAT is right."

But I think he qualified as both insane and dishonest.

To think that when insane and deluded people created Judeo-Christian mythology, they invented God in their own image. Is there some basic homing need in all mankind to create or steer all things in their own image?

[jay santos]

A wise man once said "pride is being concerned with WHO is right, humility is being concerned with WHAT is right."

I loved that talk by Pres. Benson, but for some reason I read this in Elder Bednar's voice and all it does is ruffle my feathers. Did Bednar quote this in a talk recently? I've got real issues with him I need to get over.

[CardiacCoug]

A wise man once said "pride is being concerned with WHO is right, humility is being concerned with WHAT is right."

But I think he qualified as both insane and dishonest.

To think that when insane and deluded people created Judeo-Christian mythology, they invented God in their own image. Is there some basic homing need in all mankind to create or steer all things in their own image?

Glad you liked my post. But I'm trying to figure out what your post about pride/humility has to do with my original post.

I don't get it. Can Goat or somebody else connect the dots for me? TIA.

Are you saying that humble people claim to have a "knowing testimony" and that proud people claim NOT to have a "knowing testimony?" That's an interesting take that I have never considered. The opposite seems to be true to me.

[Donuthole]

Glad you liked my post. But I'm trying to figure out what your post about pride/humility has to do with my original post.

I don't get it. Can Goat or somebody else connect the dots for me? TIA.

Are you saying that humble people claim to have a "knowing testimony" and that proud people claim NOT to have a "knowing testimony?" That's an interesting take that I have never considered. The opposite seems to be true to me.

I think what he's saying is that your conclusion that "nobody knows" and anyone who claims to know is "living in a fantasy world" is about as humble as the opinion that having a "knowing testimony" makes one better than someone with doubts. At least that's how I read it.

In other words, while I tend to agree with the gist of your post, I think you probably could have found a less patronizing way to express yourself.

[CardiacCoug]

I think what he's saying is that your conclusion that "nobody knows" and anyone who claims to know is "living in a fantasy world" is about as humble as the opinion that having a "knowing testimony" makes one better than someone with doubts. At least that's how I read it.

In other words, while I tend to agree with the gist of your post, I think you probably could have found a less patronizing way to express yourself.

Gotcha -- of course that's not the way I would ever speak to either a believer or a doubter. My response to Dustin is more of my gut reaction (internal voice) and I'm sure it's insulting to those who have a knowing testimony and I apologize to those who are insulted by it.

Sometimes this stuff makes me feel like I am living in bizarro world: someone who claims that God speaks to them is considered a humble person and someone who says they don't really know anything about God is considered a proud person. I think in the Church that is pretty much how it works. Fascinating.

[wuapinmon]

I used to really look forward to reading Jeff Burton's Borderlander column in Sunstone magazine.

Lately, though, I find it infuriating the way the Borderlanders featured in the column seem to assume that they are inferior to true believers because they don't claim to know the unknowable.

Here's an excerpt from the latest Sunstone, which was about Borderlanders trying to find a religiously compatible mate:



After reading obsequious stuff like this, I just want to scream at young Dustin and others like him: "Why on earth do you feel inferior to your girlfriend and other true believers when you're the sane and honest one in this situation? It's your girlfriend who is living in the fantasy world, claiming to admire the Emporer's clothes when he is standing there naked as a jaybird. There is no such thing as a 'knowing testimony' -- just millions of people who are either less honest or more deluded than you are. Just stay in the Church if you want to stay and don't ever take a backseat to those who either dishonestly or delusionally claim to know the unknowable. NOBODY KNOWS! NOBODY KNOWS!

<rant over>

When my old branch president in New Orleans and I were talking, one on one, about my doubts, I asked him point blank, "Don't you ever doubt?" His response left an indelible impression on me. "I don't doubt. I guess one of my gifts is that I just know that it's all true. I can't prove it, but I know it. It's not a hunch or a hope, I know it. Too much has happened that I can't explain."

I take comfort that some people are able to know. I hope and believe, but I don't know. But, I think it's a bit hyperbolic to run screaming into the night that no one can. And I think using the word "delusionally" is a touch offensive and rather presumptuous for someone ranting about what can't be known.

I love you, CC, not DDD-level love, but at least CC-level.

[CardiacCoug]

When my old branch president in New Orleans and I were talking, one on one, about my doubts, I asked him point blank, "Don't you ever doubt?" His response left an indelible impression on me. "I don't doubt. I guess one of my gifts is that I just know that it's all true. I can't prove it, but I know it. It's not a hunch or a hope, I know it. Too much has happened that I can't explain."

I take comfort that some people are able to know. I hope and believe, but I don't know. But, I think it's a bit hyperbolic to run screaming into the night that no one can. And I think using the word "delusionally" is a touch offensive and rather presumptuous for someone ranting about what can't be known.

I love you, CC, not DDD-level love, but at least CC-level.

Thanks, Wuap. Love you too, man. You're right. I need to find a better word than delusional because I agree that it's poor word choice on my part, and it's not exactly the way I feel. Maybe simply "mistaken" is a better word.

Also, for the record I should say: I feel like one of my gifts is to know that nobody knows whether or not God even exists. I can't prove it, but I know in my heart that nobody knows. It's not a hunch or a hope, I just have always known that they don't know. (I'm not entirely joking with this.)

[clackamascoug]

When my old branch president in New Orleans and I were talking, one on one, about my doubts, I asked him point blank, "Don't you ever doubt?" His response left an indelible impression on me. "I don't doubt. I guess one of my gifts is that I just know that it's all true. I can't prove it, but I know it. It's not a hunch or a hope, I know it. Too much has happened that I can't explain."

I take comfort that some people are able to know. I hope and believe, but I don't know. But, I think it's a bit hyperbolic to run screaming into the night that no one can. And I think using the word "delusionally" is a touch offensive and rather presumptuous for someone ranting about what can't be known.

I love you, CC, not DDD-level love, but at least CC-level.

D&C 46
11 For all have not every gift given unto them; for there are many gifts, and to every man is given a gift by the Spirit of God.
12 To some is given one, and to some is given another, that all may be profited thereby.
13 To some it is given by the Holy Ghost to know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and that he was crucified for the sins of the world.
14 To others it is given to believe on their words, that they also might have eternal life if they continue faithful.

[wuapinmon]

Thanks, Wuap. Love you too, man. You're right. I need to find a better word than delusional because I agree that it's poor word choice on my part, and it's not exactly the way I feel. Maybe simply "mistaken" is a better word.

Also, for the record I should say: I feel like one of my gifts is to know that nobody knows whether or not God even exists. I can't prove it, but I know in my heart that nobody knows. It's not a hunch or a hope, I just have always known that they don't know. (I'm not entirely joking with this.)

I'm not sure that mistaken is any better. Might I offer, "non-noetic?"

[CardiacCoug]

I should also add that I have the utmost respect and deference for people who have faith in God and in their particular religious principles. At times, I like to even consider myself one of these people who has a certain degree of faith in God and in many LDS teachings.

It's really the claim to "knowledge" of abstract theological concepts that just strikes me as false. Not necessarily dishonest, but just false. Certain things are mysteries, not even meant to be known or capable of being "known."

If by "knowledge" people really mean "an abiding faith" then I can accept that completely. And I do think that many LDS people say "I know...." when they really mean "I have faith in...." Maybe it's just an issue of semantics, but it's an issue that I find highly irritating.

[scottie]

I should also add that I have the utmost respect and deference for people who have faith in God and in their particular religious principles. At times, I like to even consider myself one of these people who has a certain degree of faith in God and in many LDS teachings.

It's really the claim to "knowledge" of abstract theological concepts that just strikes me as false. Not necessarily dishonest, but just false. Certain things are mysteries, not even meant to be known or capable of being "known."

If by "knowledge" people really mean "an abiding faith" then I can accept that completely. And I do think that many LDS people say "I know...." when they really mean "I have faith in...." Maybe it's just an issue of semantics, but it's an issue that I find highly irritating.

I thought there was some good discussion in this thread: http://cougaruteforum.com/showthread.php?t=16224

[CardiacCoug]

I thought there was some good discussion in this thread: http://cougaruteforum.com/showthread.php?t=16224

Yeah, that was good. I guess we don't need to rehash all that stuff.

From the Sunstone article, it struck me as pretty sad that there are all these good kids out there who feel that they are carrying this burden that they lack a "knowing testimony" and that they therefore will have a difficult time getting married in the Church -- that no other active Church member will accept them because of their honest doubts.

Just another example of a problem created by this LDS culture of claiming to "know."