Automatic Ticket to Heaven

[SeattleUte]

That's a great post, AA. Thanks.

yes

[katoa]

We sang Battle Hymn of the Republic in priesthood meeting as well. Good stuff.

Please read:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance84.html

And as for the Gettysburg Address:

"The Gettysburg speech was at once the shortest and the most famous oration in American history...the highest emotion reduced to a few poetical phrases. Lincoln himself never even remotely approached it. It is genuinely stupendous. But let us not forget that it is poetry, not logic; beauty, not sense. Think of the argument in it. Put it into the cold words of everyday. The doctrine is simply this: that the Union soldiers who died at Gettysburg sacrificed their lives to the cause of self-determination – that government of the people, by the people, for the people, should not perish from the earth. It is difficult to imagine anything more untrue. The Union soldiers in the battle actually fought against self-determination; it was the Confederates who fought for the right of their people to govern themselves." - H.L. Mencken

[DU Ute]

Please read:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance84.html

And as for the Gettysburg Address:

"The Gettysburg speech was at once the shortest and the most famous oration in American history...the highest emotion reduced to a few poetical phrases. Lincoln himself never even remotely approached it. It is genuinely stupendous. But let us not forget that it is poetry, not logic; beauty, not sense. Think of the argument in it. Put it into the cold words of everyday. The doctrine is simply this: that the Union soldiers who died at Gettysburg sacrificed their lives to the cause of self-determination – that government of the people, by the people, for the people, should not perish from the earth. It is difficult to imagine anything more untrue. The Union soldiers in the battle actually fought against self-determination; it was the Confederates who fought for the right of their people to govern themselves." - H.L. Mencken

The right of some of their people to govern themselves.

[katoa]

The right of some of their people to govern themselves.

Fair enough, although to grant any righteousness to the North or Lincoln because of slavery is naive.

Lincoln's own words:
"when they remind us of their constitutional rights [to own slaves], I acknowledge them, not grudgingly but fully and fairly; and I would give them any legislation for the claiming of their fugitives" (indicating support for the Fugitive Slave Act of 1850).

The Emancipation Proclamation was little more than a political gimmick, and he admitted so in a letter to Treasury Secretary Salmon P. Chase: "The original proclamation has no...legal justification, except as a military measure."

Secretary of State William Seward: "We show our sympathy with slavery by emancipating slaves where we cannot reach them and holding them in bondage where we can set them free. " (the Emancipation Proclamation applied only to slaves in states in rebellion against the United States and not to slaves in states not in rebellion).

I am ashamed and saddened every time I hear the Battle Hymn sung - it is nothing but war propaganda, claiming God's hand in murdering their southern brothers (who were claiming their God-given right to choose their own form of government, just as we did when we claimed independence from Great Britain).

[ERCougar]

Fair enough, although to grant any righteousness to the North or Lincoln because of slavery is naive.

Lincoln's own words:
"when they remind us of their constitutional rights [to own slaves], I acknowledge them, not grudgingly but fully and fairly; and I would give them any legislation for the claiming of their fugitives" (indicating support for the Fugitive Slave Act of 1850).

The Emancipation Proclamation was little more than a political gimmick, and he admitted so in a letter to Treasury Secretary Salmon P. Chase: "The original proclamation has no...legal justification, except as a military measure."

Secretary of State William Seward: "We show our sympathy with slavery by emancipating slaves where we cannot reach them and holding them in bondage where we can set them free. " (the Emancipation Proclamation applied only to slaves in states in rebellion against the United States and not to slaves in states not in rebellion).

I am ashamed and saddened every time I hear the Battle Hymn sung - it is nothing but war propaganda, claiming God's hand in murdering their southern brothers (who were claiming their God-given right to choose their own form of government, just as we did when we claimed independence from Great Britain).

Ashamed? Saddened? Really?

That's an interesting read, but I have a hard time believing that the "blasphemy"--a strong word for the theological errors he points out--really induces shame and sadness. C'mon....

[katoa]

Ashamed? Saddened? Really?

That's an interesting read, but I have a hard time believing that the "blasphemy"--a strong word for the theological errors he points out--really induces shame and sadness. C'mon....

You missed the point - the hymn isn't "blasphemy" because of "theological errors", it is so because it uses holy (at least to the author and most who sing the words) scripture to justify unholy aims.

How else should one feel, but shame, about singing praise to God for exercising His wrath of justice as an excuse to murder their brothers? (ignoring the most basic principles expressed in our Founding documents)

How can I not feel sadness at the countless human suffering during the preventable Civil War?

[Babs]

I am ashamed and saddened every time I hear the Battle Hymn sung - it is nothing but war propaganda, claiming God's hand in murdering their southern brothers (who were claiming their God-given right to choose their own form of government, just as we did when we claimed independence from Great Britain).

I think wuap's going to like this guy.

[Clark Addison]

Fair enough, although to grant any righteousness to the North or Lincoln because of slavery is naive.

Lincoln's own words:
"when they remind us of their constitutional rights [to own slaves], I acknowledge them, not grudgingly but fully and fairly; and I would give them any legislation for the claiming of their fugitives" (indicating support for the Fugitive Slave Act of 1850).

The Emancipation Proclamation was little more than a political gimmick, and he admitted so in a letter to Treasury Secretary Salmon P. Chase: "The original proclamation has no...legal justification, except as a military measure."

Secretary of State William Seward: "We show our sympathy with slavery by emancipating slaves where we cannot reach them and holding them in bondage where we can set them free. " (the Emancipation Proclamation applied only to slaves in states in rebellion against the United States and not to slaves in states not in rebellion).

I am ashamed and saddened every time I hear the Battle Hymn sung - it is nothing but war propaganda, claiming God's hand in murdering their southern brothers (who were claiming their God-given right to choose their own form of government, just as we did when we claimed independence from Great Britain).

The self-determination that the South seeked was overwhelmingly born of a desire to have the freedom to continue their slave laws. I don't find that particularly noble.

You can obviously find many quotes from Lincoln that do not indicate an enlightened view (by today's standards) on race and slavery. But:

1. Lincoln was a supreme politician, possibly the shrewdest this country has ever had. What he said was not always what he felt, but what was politically expedient.

2. Linciln's views on slavery evolved over time. By the time of the Civil Way, he was convinved that slavery was a great evil.

3. It is difficult to judge Lincoln by the standards of today. In his time, he was definitely very progressive on race issues.

[Indy Coug]

You missed the point - the hymn isn't "blasphemy" because of "theological errors", it is so because it uses holy (at least to the author and most who sing the words) scripture to justify unholy aims.

How else should one feel, but shame, about singing praise to God for exercising His wrath of justice as an excuse to murder their brothers? (ignoring the most basic principles expressed in our Founding documents)

How can I not feel sadness at the countless human suffering during the preventable Civil War?

Every war is preventable, so I'm not sure why you felt like you needed to point that out with the Civil War. Furthermore, the lyrics of the hymn have been modified.

I'm pretty sure there are a couple of other hymns that were modified from British drinking songs, so do you want to start bitching about them now?

[UtahDan]

I think wuap's going to like this guy.

This is some pretty good trolling.

[UtahDan]

You missed the point - the hymn isn't "blasphemy" because of "theological errors", it is so because it uses holy (at least to the author and most who sing the words) scripture to justify unholy aims.

How else should one feel, but shame, about singing praise to God for exercising His wrath of justice as an excuse to murder their brothers? (ignoring the most basic principles expressed in our Founding documents)

How can I not feel sadness at the countless human suffering during the preventable Civil War?

Katoa, do you believe that Utah should secede or otherwise break free from the United States?

[Babs]

This is some pretty good trolling.

well it WAS. Thanks for nothing, jerk!

[UtahDan]

well it WAS. Thanks for nothing, jerk!

Always happy to provide you the things you deserve Babs.

[Babs]

Always happy to provide you the things you deserve Babs.

As you wish. Just remember that karma, much like babs, sure can be a bitch...

[UtahDan]

As you wish. Just remember that karma, much like babs, sure can be a bitch...

Karma comes around a lot more than you do lately.