Automatic Ticket to Heaven

[Babs]

Karma comes around a lot more than you do lately.

We come and go.

[UtahDan]

We come and go.

+1 ...

[LA Ute]

Fair enough, although to grant any righteousness to the North or Lincoln because of slavery is naive.

Lincoln's own words:
"when they remind us of their constitutional rights [to own slaves], I acknowledge them, not grudgingly but fully and fairly; and I would give them any legislation for the claiming of their fugitives" (indicating support for the Fugitive Slave Act of 1850).

The Emancipation Proclamation was little more than a political gimmick, and he admitted so in a letter to Treasury Secretary Salmon P. Chase: "The original proclamation has no...legal justification, except as a military measure."

Secretary of State William Seward: "We show our sympathy with slavery by emancipating slaves where we cannot reach them and holding them in bondage where we can set them free. " (the Emancipation Proclamation applied only to slaves in states in rebellion against the United States and not to slaves in states not in rebellion).

I am ashamed and saddened every time I hear the Battle Hymn sung - it is nothing but war propaganda, claiming God's hand in murdering their southern brothers (who were claiming their God-given right to choose their own form of government, just as we did when we claimed independence from Great Britain).

Have you read Doris Kearns Goodwin's Team of Rivals? I think it is typical of the views of most historians who know all sides of the subject you're addressing and who avoid the presentism you seem to be employing. It seems pretty clear to me that Lincoln's views on slavery evolved, and when it counted he was in the right place. The man was and is a hero and we all owe him a lot.

[UtahDan]

Have you read Doris Kearns Goodwin's Team of Rivals? I think it is typical of the views of most historians who know all sides of the subject you're addressing and who avoid the presentism you seem to be employing. It seems pretty clear to me that Lincoln's views on slavery evolved, and when it counted he was in the right place. The man was and is a hero and we all owe him a lot.

I have posted on this before, but Henry Gates has some fascinating takes on Lincoln, race, etc.

http://www.cougaruteforum.com/showpost.php?p=134607&postcount=1

One of the things he really give Lincoln credit for is his evolution. Particularly he talks about when he and Frederick Douglas met each other and both came away with their thinking profoundly changed. He laments that we will never know how much further his thinking on race would have evolved and how that would have affected reconstruction.

[katoa]

Katoa, do you believe that Utah should secede or otherwise break free from the United States?

Utah would never have the guts to do it - they are forever stuck in the "please accept me - my religion really isn't that weird" mentality, and thus would back down when push comes to shove.

On the other hand, I would move overnight to any other State that did have the guts to break free. It would be a fascinating political scenario - I'm not so sure Obama or Mitt/Republican would be able to pull off what Lincoln did, given the dynamic of live TV coverage. America can barely stomach the ugliness of war on the other side of the world against an enemy with a different religion and skin color. To watch, on live TV, the Feds invade a seceding State, ... ?

[Babs]

Utah would never have the guts to do it - they are forever stuck in the "please accept me - my religion really isn't that weird" mentality, and thus would back down when push comes to shove.

On the other hand, I would move overnight to any other State that did have the guts to break free. It would be a fascinating political scenario - I'm not so sure Obama or Mitt/Republican would be able to pull off what Lincoln did, given the dynamic of live TV coverage. America can barely stomach the ugliness of war on the other side of the world against an enemy with a different religion and skin color. To watch, on live TV, the Feds invade a seceding State, ... ?

hey, kat, can you answer these questions three?

What's with the name?
What is your quest?
And what is your favorite team color?

[Indy Coug]

Utah would never have the guts to do it - they are forever stuck in the "please accept me - my religion really isn't that weird" mentality, and thus would back down when push comes to shove.

On the other hand, I would move overnight to any other State that did have the guts to break free. It would be a fascinating political scenario - I'm not so sure Obama or Mitt/Republican would be able to pull off what Lincoln did, given the dynamic of live TV coverage. America can barely stomach the ugliness of war on the other side of the world against an enemy with a different religion and skin color. To watch, on live TV, the Feds invade a seceding State, ... ?

So what is so appealing to you about a living in a state that secedes? What will they offer that will represent significant "added value"?

[katoa]

Have you read Doris Kearns Goodwin's Team of Rivals? I think it is typical of the views of most historians who know all sides of the subject you're addressing and who avoid the presentism you seem to be employing. It seems pretty clear to me that Lincoln's views on slavery evolved, and when it counted he was in the right place. The man was and is a hero and we all owe him a lot.

Couldn't disagree more - Doris Kearns is what Murray Rothbard described as a "Court Historian" (see http://www.lewrockwell.com/dilorenzo/dilorenzo98.html)

DiLorenzo's "The Real Lincoln" is a far better treaty on the subject. He summarizes it pretty well in another article:

"Lincoln micromanaged the murder of some 350,000 fellow Americans, including more than 50,000 civilians, in order to "prove" his point that the central government is indeed not voluntary, the states were never sovereign (so he said), and that any group of citizens who contemplate leaving it will be killed en masse, their cities and towns burned to the ground, and their wealth and personal belongings confiscated by the U.S. Army. If we standardize for today’s population, Lincoln’s killing machine would lead to the death of more than 6 million Americans."

The Lincoln worship (and worship of every other President that leads us into war) in this country is sickening.

[katoa]

hey, kat, can you answer these questions three?

What's with the name?
What is your quest?
And what is your favorite team color?

Name - Katoa, one of my favorite Maori words, meaning whole (I am a big believer in Systems Thinking - [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systems_thinking"]Systems thinking - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File:Complex-adaptive-system.jpg" class="image"><img alt="" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/00/Complex-adaptive-system.jpg/32px-Complex-adaptive-system.jpg"@@AMEPARAM@@commons/thumb/0/00/Complex-adaptive-system.jpg/32px-Complex-adaptive-system.jpg[/ame])

Quest - not sure what you are getting at, no particular goal in mind, other than for my family and I to be free (I am [small l] libertarian)

Team Color - I bleed blue

[Babs]

Name - Katoa, one of my favorite Maori words, meaning whole (I am a big believer in Systems Thinking - Systems thinking - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

Quest - not sure what you are getting at, no particular goal in mind, other than for my family and I to be free (I am [small l] libertarian)

Team Color - I bleed blue

k. thanks.

[katoa]

So what is so appealing to you about a living in a state that secedes? What will they offer that will represent significant "added value"?

1. No worries about having my kids drafted into fighting some foreign war for the American Empire
2. No IRS
3. on and on...

I'm in no way saying it would be Utopia - it more likely would be a living hell (because of the fight with the Feds), but I'd rather have the chance for freedom than living in the "slowly boiled frog" chains we live in now.

P.S. Sorry for hijacking the thread - I only meant to add some caution to the "I love my country" religious patriotism.

[Babs]

1. No worries about having my kids drafted into fighting some foreign war for the American Empire
2. No IRS
3. on and on...

I'm in no way saying it would be Utopia - it more likely would be a living hell (because of the fight with the Feds), but I'd rather have the chance for freedom than living in the "slowly boiled frog" chains we live in now.

P.S. Sorry for hijacking the thread - I only meant to add some caution to the "I love my country" religious patriotism.

wow. No offense, but your posts come across as woefully underinformed, immature, and idealistic...roughly as grounded in reality as Lennon's vision of all the people sharing all the world. If you're trolling, more power to you. If not, well, good luck with all that.

[creekster]

1. No worries about having my kids drafted into fighting some foreign war for the American Empire
2. No IRS

interesting.

ANd who is going to fight the feds if not your kids? So you'd rather have them die close to home?

ANd who will pay for the battle, etc?

Meet the new boss. Same as the old boss. Your beard is growing as you post.

[Clark Addison]

wow. No offense, but our posts come across as woefully underinformed, immature, and idealistic...roughly as grounded in reality as Lennon's vision of all the people sharing all the world. If you're trolling, more power to you. If not, well, good luck with all that.

I agree with you that yours do, but who else are you referring to with "our"?

[Babs]

I agree with you that yours do, but who else are you referring to with "our"?

BWAhahhahaha. so apropos of CUF, don't you think?