Which of these Mormon tenets are most difficult for you to obey?

[Green Lantern]

Man, I just started reading this thread and have spent the entire time formulating a response to LiveCoug's "justification of R-rated films" argument only to see that argument decimated by I.J. Reilly's excellent response. A great statement about art.

So instead I'll just say that I find it troubling when we define our righteousness solely in terms of omission (e.g. "I stay away from bad music." "I avoid bad influences." "I stay away from anything that might be unwholesome.") In my mind, the meaning of the 13th Article of Faith is that our religion is essentially meaningless unless we use it to go out in the world, encounter and reject the bad, seek out the good and make the world a better place to live. Sometimes that means reaching a hand out to those "bad influences." Sometimes it means telling everyone I know that they need to drop everything and go watch THE WIRE. I don't see this as trying to justify what movies I watch within a gospel framework. I just see it as the practical application of gospel principles.

I'm on the board of an independent cinema. I can't do my board work while avoiding rated "R" films.

SIEQ, tell me more about this. What theater?

[SteelBlue]

Yeah, that trumps R-rated movies by a country mile.

They are pretty equal in over-blownness in my book but that might just be personal experience talking. I have lived in places where not viewing R rated films was almost a test of fellowship. Meanwhile for some (perhaps even many) of those same people any book, play, t.v. show or video game was still in play because it didn't have the same rating system. Since I'm not a huge movie goer, I've always found the elevation of film above all other media in terms of danger to our spirituality to be strange.

[smokymountainrain]

So instead I'll just say that I find it troubling when we define our righteousness solely in terms of omission (e.g. "I stay away from bad music." "I avoid bad influences." "I stay away from anything that might be unwholesome.")

I'm not trying to be a pain in the ass, but again...who does this? Comments like this and cougalicious' sarcasm above sound like they are coming from a guest on Oprah who wants an applause.

[Jacob]

http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.js...RCRD#footnote1

There is a chance HBE has seen Blackhawk Down.

And we haven't even discussed books vs. movies. I read the Black Hawk Down book, but haven't seen the movie. The book was graphic. It depicted soldiers masturbating all the time, for example, in addition to all the graphic language and violence. I'm sure it was worse than the movie. But I have never seen anyone argue that reading such a book is prohibited by the church, but the movie is--according to some. There is no reason behind such a distinction. if I read the documentary, I'm well read and better informed (we are encouraged to seek out all good books) but if we see the movie, we are sinners.

This discussion is ridiculous anyway. I don't know why I've jumped in so deep. Apparently those who feel strongly that all R-rated movies are clearly prohibited by the church's injunction to only seek after the "good and wholesome" don't really care if the rest of us sin by watching R-rated movies. But then why the insistence that we admit the sin. I suppose that's the first step to repentance. So they are only trying to help those of us who don't want it.
Surely someone will respond with "Why do you have the strong need to justify your viewing habits?" I don't. I just like arguing.

[smokymountainrain]

Surely someone will respond with "Why do you have the strong need to justify your viewing habits?" I don't. I just like arguing.

[DapperDan]

Sarcasm fail. Do know anybody who really thinks this way?

(edit) perhaps you do - if so, forget my comment. It's hard for me to believe those people are out there, but I guess it's possible.

Have you heard of cougarboard?

[smokymountainrain]

Have you heard of cougarboard?

Damn. That was too easy.

[COUGALICIOUS]

I'm not trying to be a pain in the ass, but again...who does this? Comments like this and cougalicious' sarcasm above sound like they are coming from a guest on Oprah who wants an applause.

Smokey, I see where you are coming from - and I know the exact type of comment that you are referring to when you say, "Yeah, but c'mon, do you know anyone who actually does this?" That bugs me too. In fact, in the future I will probably rip-off your clever characterization of such comments (as being intended for audience applause at an Oprah taping) (and not give you any credit).

However, as it relates to the Rated R movie discussion, I am absolutely serious in my comment.

Just like Steelblue said it is HUGELY overblown.

Counting the prophets and the 12, I could only find the words "R rated" or "rated R" recorded/published about 5 times. Only twice by a President (ETB once to the deacons, once to the young women). Scott in the Liahona. Wirthlin in a book. Haight in the Ensign. Nothing in the last 9 years. Only 2 in the last 20 years.

(This thread has discussed a lot of mitigating factors: the world-wideness of the church, the fact that really, it isn't just Rs but also many pg-13s, etc.etc. But if anything, these should show that it is not a black and white issue like many make it.)

However, Smokey, a huge majority of the members I know appear to treat the issue of R rated movies just like tithing or the law of chastity - as if the Lord has clearly and repeatedly, year after year, articulated a clear policy on the subject. So that is where I'm coming from, must be who we run with. I've been dumped on a lot for ocassionally watching a rated R movie.

Interestingly, the church (via the church education system) has strongly indicated that there is no R-rated movie policy. When The Passion was a big deal, the Church issued a memo to CES employees saying that there is no church stance on viewing the Passion and not to address it with students (boardmail me for a copy of the memo). I have a hard time believing that if The Passion = a new alcoholic drink (on which there is a clear policy), they'd be able to say this.

Finally, people keep saying that the R designation used to be in the For the Strength of Youth Pamphlet. I trust you, but I have yet to empirically confirm this. Does anyone have a copy or have a link?

Thanks.

[ERCougar]

Finally, people keep saying that the R designation used to be in the For the Strength of Youth Pamphlet. I trust you, but I have yet to empirically confirm this. Does anyone have a copy or have a link?

Thanks.

Interesting. I swear that language used to be in there, but it's not now:

http://www.lds.org/youthresources/pdf/ForStrengYouth36550.pdf

(pp.17-19)

That's also interesting about the CES directive.

[COUGALICIOUS]

Have you heard of cougarboard?

Whatever gives you that idea?

http://www.cougarboard.com/noframes/...tml?id=3896105

This (highly scientific and concise) poll shows that there are quite a few respondents that believe that the Church has a policy specifically designating R rated movies as prohibido.

[smokymountainrain]

However, Smokey, a huge majority of the members I know appear to treat the issue of R rated movies just like tithing or the law of chastity - as if the Lord has clearly and repeatedly, year after year, articulated a clear policy on the subject. So that is where I'm coming from, must be who we run with. I've been dumped on a lot for ocassionally watching a rated R movie.

Makes sense. After I typed my original statement, I realized I was probably mistaken and just hadn't run into members who think this way. The more I think about it, they have to be out there. And DapperDan mentioned CB - and I can't argue with that!

Finally, people keep saying that the R designation used to be in the For the Strength of Youth Pamphlet. I trust you, but I have yet to empirically confirm this. Does anyone have a copy or have a link?

I don't think you meant to imply I said the R designation used to be in the FTSY pamphlet, but that's how you made it sound above and I wanted to be clear that I never said that or even entered a discussion about it. It doesn't say anything about R movies now, I know that much.

[COUGALICIOUS]

That's also interesting about the CES directive.

I taught seminary (opt program). (Aside: if that don't give me CUF cred, I don't know what will.)

But it was funny because when The Passion came out all of the other teachers were railing on it in their classrooms for a few days. During a post-school meeting, they even discussed strategies for encouraging their students not to view it. (Meanwhile I stayed quiet because, uh, you know, I had seen it and enjoyed it and felt something not totally different from the Spirit while watching it).

The very day after the meeting the church memo got circulated. The other teachers were a little dumbfounded, but okay with it.

The competing syllogisms would go like this:

All rated R movies are against Church policy. The Passion is rated R. Therefore, The Passion is against Church policy.

or

The Passion is Rated R. The Church has stated that it does not have a policy on viewing The Passion. Therefore, the Church does not have a policy prohibiting all rated R movies.

(I have no idea what the word "syllogism" means - and as I type, I'm just kinda hoping there isn't a logical fallacy up there.)

Any thoughts on that?

[Sullyute]

This is a great thread. Thanks Scottie for linking to it.

Art in general, and film in particular, are often ways to explore and discover the humanity in people. It allows viewers to empathize with people they might otherwise not understand, or to experience a reality that they might otherwise not be familiar with. I have never been to war, but my experience through film with war is that war is hell. This experience has made me want to steer clear of violent conflicts both personally and on a national scale, if at all possible. I don't want that hell for myself or for others. Films, even R rated films, have helped me understand these things, through their depiction of the realities of war, both physical and emotional.

The realities of people's lives are often R rated, yet I still think that my quest for those things which are virtuous and lovely, my desire to be better connected to all of mankind and to feel charity towards towards my fellowman, has been bolstered and enhanced by those realities as they were presented in film.

This is a great quote especially the bolded part.

I swear online quite often. I don't watch R-rated or PG-13 movies and there are several PG movies I won't watch - partly because of the profanity they contain.

It's easy for me to avoid movies I consider inappropriate. I like using profanity on a message board to communicate a message. That may be a contradiction, but just because I participate in one inappropriate activity that I struggle with, doesn't mean I should go ahead and participate in another that is easy for me to avoid.

I found your first paragraph very ironic, but you followed it with some very convincing logic. I had issues with people who act pious and then drop the F-bomb in a sports games or other activities (Yes I am looking at BYU football players). But your statement helped me realize that for some people it is just something that may be hard to quit and overcome (or they may just not care). Either way, thanks for expanding my view point.

And we haven't even discussed books vs. movies. I read the Black Hawk Down book, but haven't seen the movie. The book was graphic. It depicted soldiers masturbating all the time, for example, in addition to all the graphic language and violence. I'm sure it was worse than the movie. But I have never seen anyone argue that reading such a book is prohibited by the church, but the movie is--according to some. There is no reason behind such a distinction. if I read the documentary, I'm well read and better informed (we are encouraged to seek out all good books) but if we see the movie, we are sinners.

If there was a rating system on books then I am sure that we as members would find ways to judge others on what they read. I read How to Break a Terrorist last year and it was great. There was a lot of language that would have definitely made it rated R if it was a movie. Although I was not a fan of the language, the book was very insightful and informing.

This thread peaked my interest as my wife and I watch the first rated R movie together in almost 10 years. The last rated R movie I watch was Swordfish (on a bus in Thailand, not sure what the rating was there, so maybe not technically rated R) and Duets (at a bachelor party) back in 2002. There was nothing interesting at the Redbox so we decided to watch Up in the Air since it was highly regarded by the critics.

We were both very disappointed in our choice. There were way more F-bombs than we were expecting. I realize that if you are getting fired from your job that there is a good chance that swears words will fly from your lips. So even though we will probably not see another rated R movie for a while (I am trying to get my wife to watch The Kings Speech) it doesn't bother me that others choose to do so.

Either way, my point is that I don't think that there should be an arbitrary line on what I watch, read, listen to, etc, but that I should simply be wise in making those choices for myself and my family.

[RobinFinderson]

I assume you are also aware that they changed the wording in the Strength of the Youth pamphlet to remove the phrase "R-rated". I suppose someone realized how silly it was to turn over our decision-making to the MPAA board.

I haven't heard any mention of R-rated movies in church for years.

Or they just realized that the R-rating doesn't translate to countries where the MPAA doesn't rate movies. I doubt the church changed its mind about looking at T&A and listening to the F-word and the Lord's name.

[Katy Lied]

I'm on the board of an independent cinema. I can't do my board work while avoiding rated "R" films.

My old bishop worked at Dreamworks. He was required to watch all the movies--his studio's and competitors. He had a fistful of laminated movie passes to every chain theater in town. He introduced me to Neil LaButte.