Which of these Mormon tenets are most difficult for you to obey?

[falafel]

I think the Old Testament is R-rated for sure. I am amazed at the stuff we find in there.

I am curious why you keep bringing up the "justify" thing. You seem to be quite passionate about making sure everyone knows darned well that they are sinning. Why worry about it?

Why worry about sinning? Is that really your question?

[Indy Coug]

Why worry about sinning? Is that really your question?

After all, what is a few stripes?

[LiveCoug]

Why worry about it?

That I agree with. Why worry about it? When you watch a rated R movie, just do it knowing that it is not appropriate based on the gospel. Trying to reconcile rated R movies as being ok because it is uplifting and inspiring is silly.

[LiveCoug]

Yeah, I have heard that analogy many times. I find it absurd and I groan each time I hear it. Exhibit A that we are turning into a bunch of pharisees.

I think the Old Testament is R-rated for sure. I am amazed at the stuff we find in there.

By the way, if you think the speck of poo argument is groan worthy and absurd, why did you go with the Old Testament is R-rated absurd and groan worthy argument?

[Jeff Lebowski]

That I agree with. Why worry about it? When you watch a rated R movie, just do it knowing that it is not appropriate based on the gospel. Trying to reconcile rated R movies as being ok because it is uplifting and inspiring is silly.

You obviously have completely missed the point of my argument. I will blame myself for poor communication and bow out of this discussion.

[LiveCoug]

You obviously have completely missed the point of my argument. I will blame myself for poor communication and bow out of this discussion.

That's exactly what I was thinking of saying to you!

No big deal.

[Indy Coug]

By the way, if you think the speck of poo argument is groan worthy and absurd, why did you go with the Old Testament is R-rated absurd and groan worthy argument?

JL has an illustrated Song of Solomon and the Perilous Drunken Misadventures of Job and Onan, Not Again!

[Jeff Lebowski]

JL has an illustrated Song of Solomon and the Perilous Drunken Misadventures of Job and Onan, Not Again!

[ERCougar]

How some members treat the R-rated movie issue is really interesting to me. It seems like some will post in one thread calling the prophet the infallible mouthpiece of God and then in another thread post a review of the latest Quentin Tarantino movie (and then drop an F-bomb in another thread). I'm thinking of a specific poster here but he's not here to defend himself and he's certainly not alone anyway. Isn't there a disconnect here? Watching an R-rated movie (like swearing on a message board) isn't a sin of passion or weakness--it's a premeditated decision. You have to look through the movies, pick one, go buy a ticket, etc. What's going on in your brain as you're going through these steps?

By the way, those of you who know me should know that I'm not making a judgment on seeing R-rated movies. My answer on this is pretty easy--like everything else that the prophet says, the R-rated movie is a counsel and I should carefully consider if and how it should apply to me. But I don't think that's how everyone views things.

[UtahDan]

I just find it interesting that most threads in the foyer are threads that are whining about particular things associated with the Mormon church. I rarely see anything the other way. Nobody, it seems, is interested to hear about someones testimony or beliefs of the good in the church. No big deal, but that's what I see and that's why I rarely venture into the foyer.

I just don't care enough about the juicy negative stuff. It doesn't affect the way I want to live my life. Anyway, no biggie, I'll move on.

I'm to lazy to look for what I have said about this in the past. I'll sum up:

1. We all have the faith affirming base covered, we get it at church every week.

2. Most of us don't have a venue to talk about things that would be uncomfortable, and probably in appropriate for Sunday School or Elders Quorum which is why we like to talk about them here. Some people are having faith crises that they don't have another good outlet for.

3. When people share faith affirming stories in this setting, they are treated with respect almost without exception.

4. The bolded language above is very dismissive and irritating.

[I.J. Reilly]

I just find it interesting that most threads in the foyer are threads that are whining about particular things associated with the Mormon church. I rarely see anything the other way. Nobody, it seems, is interested to hear about someones testimony or beliefs of the good in the church. No big deal, but that's what I see and that's why I rarely venture into the foyer.

I just don't care enough about the juicy negative stuff. It doesn't affect the way I want to live my life. Anyway, no biggie, I'll move on.

To the bolded part above, I humbly ask for your thoughtful submission to this thread. I am very sincere in my desire to hear about those things which are uniquely Mormon tenets of faith that inspire the souls of my fellow CUF'ers. There have been some good submissions to the thread, but there are still many more on the board I would like to hear from.

Now, I'll poke my head for a moment into the discussion of R rated movies, in a hope to combat this thought:

I will never understand the justification of watching rated R movies within the context of the LDS church beliefs. No way can it be justified!

As a basis for my argument, I would cite the 13th Article of faith, which in turn finds its basis in Philippians 4:8. LiveCoug, you previously said this:

I'm not saying that they can't be uplifting and inspiring. I've seen plenty of rated R movies that are just that.

Those things which are uplifting and inspiring would fall under my definition of things that are "virtuous, lovely or of good report or praiseworthy."

To see something in a movie is not to condone the action, or to participate in it yourself. Many movies which portray some of the behaviors which are against church beliefs, such as drug abuse, sexual relations outside of marriage, violent acts, etc., portray them in a negative light. They too do not condone the acts and might even condemn them, but since film is a visual medium, they do show them.

Art in general, and film in particular, are often ways to explore and discover the humanity in people. It allows viewers to empathize with people they might otherwise not understand, or to experience a reality that they might otherwise not be familiar with. I have never been to war, but my experience through film with war is that war is hell. This experience has made me want to steer clear of violent conflicts both personally and on a national scale, if at all possible. I don't want that hell for myself or for others. Films, even R rated films, have helped me understand these things, through their depiction of the realities of war, both physical and emotional.

The realities of people's lives are often R rated, yet I still think that my quest for those things which are virtuous and lovely, my desire to be better connected to all of mankind and to feel charity towards towards my fellowman, has been bolstered and enhanced by those realities as they were presented in film.

I actually believe that the espousal of the idea that even the depiction or description of actions which are contrary to LDS beliefs is wrong and should be avoided is very harmful to the nurturing of a truly strong and vibrant LDS artistic community. The idea that only good things should be presented is stifling to artistic growth for many reasons. First, good art is often borne out of tension. Where only the "good" things are presented, there is no tension. Second, really good art is often so recognized because of the connections the viewer can make with the art and the response that that art draws out on a visceral level. A flawless subject is a particularly unrelatable one, because as humans we are all flawed beings.

In fact, I would go so far as to say that the consequences of a desire to present only wholesome characters and stories has been detrimental to the LDS community as a whole. The characters presented to us in the LDS narrative, at least as presented in Sunday School, have been whitewashed of their flaws. They have been held up as ideals to which we should aspire to be like, but the wholesale deletion of character flaws in these great people has made the ideal absolutely unattainable even while we are pushed and told to be more like these people. It is unsustainable.

Sorry about that tangent there, mostly I just want to say that I will continue to "seek after these things" and I definitely do think that the beliefs of the LDS church justify my actions.

[DapperDan]

To see something in a movie is not to condone the action, or to participate in it yourself. Many movies which portray some of the behaviors which are against church beliefs, such as drug abuse, sexual relations outside of marriage, violent acts, etc., portray them in a negative light. They too do not condone the acts and might even condemn them, but since film is a visual medium, they do show them.

Art in general, and film in particular, are often ways to explore and discover the humanity in people. It allows viewers to empathize with people they might otherwise not understand, or to experience a reality that they might otherwise not be familiar with. I have never been to war, but my experience through film with war is that war is hell. This experience has made me want to steer clear of violent conflicts both personally and on a national scale, if at all possible. I don't want that hell for myself or for others. Films, even R rated films, have helped me understand these things, through their depiction of the realities of war, both physical and emotional.

The realities of people's lives are often R rated, yet I still think that my quest for those things which are virtuous and lovely, my desire to be better connected to all of mankind and to feel charity towards towards my fellowman, has been bolstered and enhanced by those realities as they were presented in film.

I actually believe that the espousal of the idea that even the depiction or description of actions which are contrary to LDS beliefs is wrong and should be avoided is very harmful to the nurturing of a truly strong and vibrant LDS artistic community. The idea that only good things should be presented is stifling to artistic growth for many reasons. First, good art is often borne out of tension. Where only the "good" things are presented, there is no tension. Second, really good art is often so recognized because of the connections the viewer can make with the art and the response that that art draws out on a visceral level. A flawless subject is a particularly unrelatable one, because as humans we are all flawed beings.

In fact, I would go so far as to say that the consequences of a desire to present only wholesome characters and stories has been detrimental to the LDS community as a whole. The characters presented to us in the LDS narrative, at least as presented in Sunday School, have been whitewashed of their flaws. They have been held up as ideals to which we should aspire to be like, but the wholesale deletion of character flaws in these great people has made the ideal absolutely unattainable even while we are pushed and told to be more like these people. It is unsustainable.

Very well said. I've had thoughts along these lines but yours are much better formed and articulated.

edit: I should add that this doesn't apply to me. I just watch things that I'm interested in whatever the rating.

[smokymountainrain]

How some members treat the R-rated movie issue is really interesting to me. It seems like some will post in one thread calling the prophet the infallible mouthpiece of God and then in another thread post a review of the latest Quentin Tarantino movie (and then drop an F-bomb in another thread).

I swear online quite often. I don't watch R-rated or PG-13 movies and there are several PG movies I won't watch - partly because of the profanity they contain.

It's easy for me to avoid movies I consider inappropriate. I like using profanity on a message board to communicate a message. That may be a contradiction, but just because I participate in one inappropriate activity that I struggle with, doesn't mean I should go ahead and participate in another that is easy for me to avoid.

I'm not sure if that speaks to your point above, but it's what came to mind as I was reading your post.

[ERCougar]

To the bolded part above, I humbly ask for your thoughtful submission to this thread. I am very sincere in my desire to hear about those things which are uniquely Mormon tenets of faith that inspire the souls of my fellow CUF'ers. There have been some good submissions to the thread, but there are still many more on the board I would like to hear from.

Now, I'll poke my head for a moment into the discussion of R rated movies, in a hope to combat this thought:

As a basis for my argument, I would cite the 13th Article of faith, which in turn finds its basis in Philippians 4:8. LiveCoug, you previously said this:

Those things which are uplifting and inspiring would fall under my definition of things that are "virtuous, lovely or of good report or praiseworthy."

To see something in a movie is not to condone the action, or to participate in it yourself. Many movies which portray some of the behaviors which are against church beliefs, such as drug abuse, sexual relations outside of marriage, violent acts, etc., portray them in a negative light. They too do not condone the acts and might even condemn them, but since film is a visual medium, they do show them.

Art in general, and film in particular, are often ways to explore and discover the humanity in people. It allows viewers to empathize with people they might otherwise not understand, or to experience a reality that they might otherwise not be familiar with. I have never been to war, but my experience through film with war is that war is hell. This experience has made me want to steer clear of violent conflicts both personally and on a national scale, if at all possible. I don't want that hell for myself or for others. Films, even R rated films, have helped me understand these things, through their depiction of the realities of war, both physical and emotional.

The realities of people's lives are often R rated, yet I still think that my quest for those things which are virtuous and lovely, my desire to be better connected to all of mankind and to feel charity towards towards my fellowman, has been bolstered and enhanced by those realities as they were presented in film.

I actually believe that the espousal of the idea that even the depiction or description of actions which are contrary to LDS beliefs is wrong and should be avoided is very harmful to the nurturing of a truly strong and vibrant LDS artistic community. The idea that only good things should be presented is stifling to artistic growth for many reasons. First, good art is often borne out of tension. Where only the "good" things are presented, there is no tension. Second, really good art is often so recognized because of the connections the viewer can make with the art and the response that that art draws out on a visceral level. A flawless subject is a particularly unrelatable one, because as humans we are all flawed beings.

In fact, I would go so far as to say that the consequences of a desire to present only wholesome characters and stories has been detrimental to the LDS community as a whole. The characters presented to us in the LDS narrative, at least as presented in Sunday School, have been whitewashed of their flaws. They have been held up as ideals to which we should aspire to be like, but the wholesale deletion of character flaws in these great people has made the ideal absolutely unattainable even while we are pushed and told to be more like these people. It is unsustainable.

Sorry about that tangent there, mostly I just want to say that I will continue to "seek after these things" and I definitely do think that the beliefs of the LDS church justify my actions.

This is a great post.

I love what you say about great art arising out of tension. I also really like your point on the detriments of whitewashing life. However, I think these can be overdone. I do think there's a value to shocking one's senses, bringing people out of their comfort zone, but it's a very fine line to tread between expanding one's awareness and dulling one's senses. I work in the medical field. I've heard many say that they could never work in the field because they can't handle needles or blood or whatnot. I think that's silly. The sight of blood should jar us a little bit--it's part of our humanity. I don't know many people who aren't bothered by blood--except for those who see it every day. And I don't know that that (the desensitization process) is a good thing. I feel like I've sacrificed a bit of my humanity to my profession. I think we do the same thing when we repeatedly view horrific acts, even if only on film. There's not many things that alarm me more than someone saying "it's only rated R for violence", as if watching someone get their head blown off is somehow less damaging than seeing some boobs.

[SeattleUte]

To the bolded part above, I humbly ask for your thoughtful submission to this thread. I am very sincere in my desire to hear about those things which are uniquely Mormon tenets of faith that inspire the souls of my fellow CUF'ers. There have been some good submissions to the thread, but there are still many more on the board I would like to hear from.

Now, I'll poke my head for a moment into the discussion of R rated movies, in a hope to combat this thought:

As a basis for my argument, I would cite the 13th Article of faith, which in turn finds its basis in Philippians 4:8. LiveCoug, you previously said this:

Those things which are uplifting and inspiring would fall under my definition of things that are "virtuous, lovely or of good report or praiseworthy."

To see something in a movie is not to condone the action, or to participate in it yourself. Many movies which portray some of the behaviors which are against church beliefs, such as drug abuse, sexual relations outside of marriage, violent acts, etc., portray them in a negative light. They too do not condone the acts and might even condemn them, but since film is a visual medium, they do show them.

Art in general, and film in particular, are often ways to explore and discover the humanity in people. It allows viewers to empathize with people they might otherwise not understand, or to experience a reality that they might otherwise not be familiar with. I have never been to war, but my experience through film with war is that war is hell. This experience has made me want to steer clear of violent conflicts both personally and on a national scale, if at all possible. I don't want that hell for myself or for others. Films, even R rated films, have helped me understand these things, through their depiction of the realities of war, both physical and emotional.

The realities of people's lives are often R rated, yet I still think that my quest for those things which are virtuous and lovely, my desire to be better connected to all of mankind and to feel charity towards towards my fellowman, has been bolstered and enhanced by those realities as they were presented in film.

I actually believe that the espousal of the idea that even the depiction or description of actions which are contrary to LDS beliefs is wrong and should be avoided is very harmful to the nurturing of a truly strong and vibrant LDS artistic community. The idea that only good things should be presented is stifling to artistic growth for many reasons. First, good art is often borne out of tension. Where only the "good" things are presented, there is no tension. Second, really good art is often so recognized because of the connections the viewer can make with the art and the response that that art draws out on a visceral level. A flawless subject is a particularly unrelatable one, because as humans we are all flawed beings.

In fact, I would go so far as to say that the consequences of a desire to present only wholesome characters and stories has been detrimental to the LDS community as a whole. The characters presented to us in the LDS narrative, at least as presented in Sunday School, have been whitewashed of their flaws. They have been held up as ideals to which we should aspire to be like, but the wholesale deletion of character flaws in these great people has made the ideal absolutely unattainable even while we are pushed and told to be more like these people. It is unsustainable.

Sorry about that tangent there, mostly I just want to say that I will continue to "seek after these things" and I definitely do think that the beliefs of the LDS church justify my actions.

They don't care about art per se. In fact, good art is subversive to the type of culture that LDS leaders try to maintain. After all, the Renaissance led Martin Luther to his revolt. The insipid aspect of LDS culture that you believe is bad or harmful is exactly what they try to preserve and why they don't want you seeing R rated movies. Just look at what R rated movies have doen to Lebowski.

It's about controlling your thoughts. They want conformity to a norm that they have established.