LDS Prejudice in 2009

[wuapinmon]

You're an American living the American experience which is not the same as living the church experience. Racism is an aspect of American culture, not church culture.

Context:

I live in a part of the world where two currently serving Stake Presidents are not caucasian nor were they born in North America -- one is Chinese and the other is Guatemalan ... where men from Jamaica and Central Africa serve as Bishops and in Stake Presidencies ... where many individuals, male and female, serve in positions of authority and who happen to be of extremely varied ethnicities.

Sorry to shoot you down here, but racism is alive and well in other parts of the world in the Church. Limon, Costa Rica is predominantly black, and the Church members up in the white Central Valley would jokingly sing the hymn, "En el pueblo de Sion, donde todos santos son, hay muchisimos valiantes por do quier," as "En el puerto de Limon, donde todos negros son, hay muchisimos maliantes por do quier."

The second one is totally racist. But, I should say that the majority of my experience is in the LDS Church in the United States.

[Jeff Lebowski]

No. But I did erase all of my posts one day. I'm just making a joke.

A day permanently enshrined in message board history. I still chuckle thinking about the dead bird avatar.

[wuapinmon]

I think there is plenty of racism in the church and in Utah. However I do wonder if calling someone a Mexican is racist. Clearly if they do not have Mexican heritage it is. But I was once chastised for being racist for calling someone I knew to be from Mexico a Mexican.

Is the term Mexican racist?

Edit: I guess this is what I get for responding to a post instead of reading the entire thread. I will wear this as a scarlet letter.

Of course "Mexican" isn't racist in and of itself.....but when you use it as a catchall for people of color who you don't like, then of course. Tone has everything to do with meaning. Mexican isn't bad.....it's how you use it.

[wuapinmon]

I guess this begs the question....what is the preferred term for someone that is from Mexico? Apparently it is no longer "Mexican."

ps if it pisses them off, I will still call them Mexicans, though. Just like I like driving them nuts by saying that I am from "Los Estados Unidos."

Again, calling someone from mexico mexican is fine.......tone, ese, tone. It's all about how you wield the word. And you can't reproduce tone in written language. But I wish you would all stop playing coy here.....you all know what I'm talking about. You can't be that unobservant that you haven't heard someone use "mexican" in the perjorative sense.

[TripletDaddy]

Again, calling someone from mexico mexican is fine.......tone, ese, tone. It's all about how you wield the word. And you can't reproduce tone in written language. But I wish you would all stop playing coy here.....you all know what I'm talking about. You can't be that unobservant that you haven't heard someone use "mexican" in the perjorative sense.

orale, carnal.

[wuapinmon]

orale, carnal.

Hijole huevon.......no hablo solamente de los mejicanos sino que todo el racismo en la iglesia.

Cito a Bob Marley cuando digo/canto,

"So much trouble in the world"

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[Solon]

The most racist people I know are from Utah.

There are racist people everywhere. My area of Pennsylvania has a strong KKK community (well, strong for them). There are, however, a few elements to wuapinmon's observation that I think merit further probing.

One is that the LDS church has a history of institutionalizing arguably prejudicial points of view. I know there are many who will assert that LDS doctrine and practice are not indeed racist, sexist, or whatever-ist, but the perception is there. Institutional racism is harder to forgive than racism from some hillbilly on the street. Especially if you claim membership in the institution.

In addition to the institutional history, there are the various cultural manifestations of racism usually centered in a particular region. Utah has its share of cultural racists. So does the American south, north, and pretty much anywhere else in the world. However - and this is anecdotal - I have noticed a higher degree of prejudice from LDS people with better-than-average educations. I suspect it's a non-sanctioned or bastardized extension of some of the past and present institutional foibles of the LDS church, but I'm not sure.

[Jeff Lebowski]

In addition to the institutional history, there are the various cultural manifestations of racism usually centered in a particular region. Utah has its share of cultural racists. So does the American south, north, and pretty much anywhere else in the world. However - and this is anecdotal - I have noticed a higher degree of prejudice from LDS people with better-than-average educations. I suspect it's a non-sanctioned or bastardized extension of some of the past and present institutional foibles of the LDS church, but I'm not sure.

What do you consider "cultural racism"?

[wuapinmon]

There are racist people everywhere. My area of Pennsylvania has a strong KKK community (well, strong for them). There are, however, a few elements to wuapinmon's observation that I think merit further probing.

Right, I wasn't implying there aren't....however, I quoted someone saying the South is racist, and as a Southerner living in the South, who lived in Utah for 5 years, I have to say that the most racist people _I_ know are from Utah.

One is that the LDS church has a history of institutionalizing arguably prejudicial points of view. I know there are many who will assert that LDS doctrine and practice are not indeed racist, sexist, or whatever-ist, but the perception is there. Institutional racism is harder to forgive than racism from some hillbilly on the street. Especially if you claim membership in the institution.

What I think I want to say is that many racist people in the Church don't think it's racism unless it's aimed against African Americans. Calling someone a Mexican (using that tone) isn't racist in their minds because racism only counts when you don't like black people (again, in their minds).

In addition to the institutional history, there are the various cultural manifestations of racism usually centered in a particular region. Utah has its share of cultural racists. So does the American south, north, and pretty much anywhere else in the world. However - and this is anecdotal - I have noticed a higher degree of prejudice from LDS people with better-than-average educations. I suspect it's a non-sanctioned or bastardized extension of some of the past and present institutional foibles of the LDS church, but I'm not sure.

Do you mean better-than-average Mormons, or better-than-average in general? Utah has a high number of educated people. I think a lot of racism in Utah, Idaho, Arizona comes from the shock of the recent arrival of the cultural Other. Whether they be Islanders, Hispanics, or some other minority, the Other and Other's culture are so foreign that they seem to generate negative feelings. So many of the racist comments I've heard in Utah stem from things like "Why don't those Mexicans turn their music down?" or "How many of them can they cram into that house?" which ignores the social/econmic causes of the behavior. It always amuses me when people ask, incredulously, "how many people live in that house" when we Mormons are known for our large families.

[tooblue]

Sorry to shoot you down here, but racism is alive and well in other parts of the world in the Church. Limon, Costa Rica is predominantly black, and the Church members up in the white Central Valley would jokingly sing the hymn, "En el pueblo de Sion, donde todos santos son, hay muchisimos valiantes por do quier," as "En el puerto de Limon, donde todos negros son, hay muchisimos maliantes por do quier."

The second one is totally racist. But, I should say that the majority of my experience is in the LDS Church in the United States.

You will have to offer more than anecdotes. The simple fact of the matter is my experience in the here and now severely contradicts your assertions.

You are witnessing a phenomenon that is a product of American culture.The phenomena is not an aspect of church culture more than it is an aspect of societal cultural attitudes.

Write your letter. But I contend that the US centralized US leadership already does in fact address the issue you bemoan with great regularity in conference addresses and world wide training meetings.

[New Mexican Disaster]

Mexican can be perjorative in context. Tone also matters. Tone tells you tomes.

Mexican was used as a derogatory modifier in almost every sense when I was growing up in Utah County. I still have a "thats racist" flinch when I hear people talking about things that are Mexican. Although where I live it is usually not used negatively.

[RobinFinderson]

A day permanently enshrined in message board history. I still chuckle thinking about the dead bird avatar.

Me too.

[Guest]

Tonight my daughter has a friend staying over at our place (she wanted to attend church with us tomorrow). I queried my daughter which friend was coming over; I didn't recognize the name. She offered three or four adjectives describing her and mentioned I'd meet her once before. Not able to put description to face, I said I'm sure I'll remember when I see her.

We had a great dinner and my wife took all the kids to the movies (I stayed home and watched CBB). The girls are now pretending they're going to sleep.

It struck me, not as odd, but with a little pride that my daughter never used her race (her friend is African American) to describe her earlier this evening.

I have hope for the future.

[YOhio]

It struck me, not as odd, but with a little pride that my daughter never used her race (her friend is African American) to describe her earlier this evening.

I had an awkward discussion this morning with my 3-year old when she asked if she could be brown like her friend Calese.