Honest question re BYU's course

[UtahDan]

Our pioneer practicality and our desire to conform leaves little room for intellectual pursuit.

That makes a great deal of sense, though I don't think it excludes what I am talking about. Maybe they are intertwined.

[Solon]

Another way to express those numbers is to say that about 12% of the students received a degree from the humanities department. I would be curious to know how that compares to other schools. Maybe it is similar. I don't know.

These are tricky stats to try to compare. BYU's history department, for instance, is housed in the college of social sciences, and fine arts is paired with communications.

The pains to which all these BYU grads are going to prove their education was sufficiently liberal is killing me. We get it. You're all really smart and educated. Good job. Pass the Voltaire.

PS - I still can't wrap my head around the magnificent humanities building at the byu. Someone likes the humanities around there.

[TripletDaddy]

Their parents were concerned that if they pursued their talents they'd be starving artists, or worse not be able to support a family. Two of them had been in serious relationships, only to have the girl break it off essentially because they wanted to be conventional mothers and they didn't view that as a possibility with the guys' potential career paths. The third had no trouble getting dates, but as girls found out he planned on pursuing a PHD in applied linguistics they quickly lost interest. The average Mormon woman wants to be the wife of a successful businessman, lawyer, etc.

You are attributing this to Mormonism and/or BYU? parents worried that their children are daydreamers and pursuing a path that can't support a family, people wanting to marry into security, and women wanting to be mothers instead of have careers. lol. You are a bright bulb, but this post was particularly dim.

The final sentence is particularly ridiculous. You obviously don't know very many Jews. Or Asians.

[UtahDan]

You are attributing this to Mormonism and/or BYU? parents worried that their children are daydreamers and pursuing a path that can't support a family, people wanting to marry into security, and women wanting to be mothers instead of have careers. lol. You are a bright bulb, but this post was particularly dim.

The final sentence is particularly ridiculous. You obviously don't know very many Jews. Or Asians.

Ah, but you just highlighted why his point is salient. Jew, Asians and Mormons have a great deal in common culturally. No doubt there is a similar dynamic at Yeshiva University. But can we blame that on Judaism? Of course we can (blame is a lousy word, ascribe is better).

I agree that all parents worry about practical things for their kids, but some cultures emphasize this much, much more than others. Not saying that is a good or bad thing, it just is.

[TripletDaddy]

Ah, but you just highlighted why his point is salient. Jew, Asians and Mormons have a great deal in common culturally. No doubt there is a similar dynamic at Yeshiva University. But can we blame that on Judaism? Of course we can (blame is a lousy word, ascribe is better).

I agree that all parents worry about practical things for their kids, but some cultures emphasize this much, much more than others. Not saying that is a good or bad thing, it just is.

It is not a salient point to the extent we are discussing BYU specifically, which I believe was your point. It isn't a BYU phenomenon. It is a cultural phenomenon. Harvard parents want their kids to marry doctors and lawyers and not be daydreamers, as well. pelligrino cited to his anecdotal experience as evidence of this "BYU" phenomenon. Fortunately for pellegrino, he admitted it was anecdotal, because it was clearly a horrible anecdote.

Also, I am confused by your point. Since you seem to be saying that this narrow-minded approach to liberal arts is cultural (mormonism) not institutional (BYU), then you are basically saying you, too, have a narrow approach to the arts? You are a lawyer, after all. A technical degree. Unless you consider yourself to be an exception.

[Moliere]

I don't know if this has been addressed, but I think the main reason why there are many Mormon lawyers, doctors, etc. is because that is what Mormon culture values. I am not saying that Mormons do not value the humanities at all, for we do value a certain type of art. Rather, I think this is a holdover from our pioneer heritage. We are a very practical people. We value hard work, clean living, advancements that directly improve peoples lives. Even more important in the post WWII period is the mandate that fathers be the primary (read sole) provider and that mothers stay home. Couple that with the constant yearning to be viewed as normal, mainstream Americans and you severely limit the potential careers a young Mormon man can/will pursue and still live within the cultural models he knows and desires to fulfill.

While I taught at BYU I mentored a few TAs who were trying to decide what to do with their lives. They were all very talented in different areas. One was a great writer, had published several short stories. Another was a fabulous linguist, was fluent in three languages. Another was already getting good side work as a graphic designer. Every single one of them faced the same dilemmas. Their parents were concerned that if they pursued their talents they'd be starving artists, or worse not be able to support a family. Two of them had been in serious relationships, only to have the girl break it off essentially because they wanted to be conventional mothers and they didn't view that as a possibility with the guys' potential career paths. The third had no trouble getting dates, but as girls found out he planned on pursuing a PHD in applied linguistics they quickly lost interest. The average Mormon woman wants to be the wife of a successful businessman, lawyer, etc.

I realize this is anecdotal, but I think there are deeply rooted cultural pressures at play with regards to Mormons and the humanities. I remember having some of the same issues as these guys when I was in school. Even while in grad school I would tell people that I was pursuing a PHD in Italian studies and most Mormons would give a blank stare. The polite ones would just nod their head and move on, however, many would respond with "well what are you going to do with that?" Our pioneer practicality and our desire to conform leaves little room for intellectual pursuit.

I agree with this post in spite of what DDD says. But you missed one big point. In Mormon culture having money or at least being secure is perceived as being righteous. We tend to equate being blessed as having money, and people who are blessed are obviously those who are righteous. So using the transitive property, righteousness = having money.

It's interesting how much we as Mormons love money.

[UtahDan]

It is not a salient point to the extent we are discussing BYU specifically, which I believe was your point. It isn't a BYU phenomenon. It is a cultural phenomenon. Harvard parents want their kids to marry doctors and lawyers and not be daydreamers, as well. pelligrino cited to his anecdotal experience as evidence of this "BYU" phenomenon. Fortunately for pellegrino, he admitted it was anecdotal, because it was clearly a horrible anecdote.

First, his point surrounded cultural reasons this would be true at BYU and pointed to Pioneer heritage. My point was to wonder whether we have religious reasons to be less interested in liberal arts disciplines. Those two things are distinct.

But I think all he was doing was giving an anecdote to show that this phenomenon is particularly intense at BYU. I don't think he would disagree with you that what he describes is also common in other conservative and/or religious cultures. That it is also true at Yeshiva University and Seoul National University doesn't detract from the point that it is true in Provo. It actually provides an interesting point of comparison though.

Also, I am confused by your point. Since you seem to be saying that this narrow-minded approach to liberal arts is cultural (mormonism) not institutional (BYU), then you are basically saying you, too, have a narrow approach to the arts? You are a lawyer, after all. A technical degree. Unless you consider yourself to be an exception.

Fortunately, unlike my jpegs, I think I can clear this confusion up. First, I can't conceive of how you can divorce Mormon culture from BYU or look at the two things separately. I think most people who have set foot on campus will agree that BYU is a microcosm of Mormon culture multiplied by an order of magnitude.

But regardless, I don't consider myself an exception to my culture. Quite the contrary, I am very much a product of it.

[LA Ute]

Fortunately, unlike my jpegs, I think I can clear this confusion up. First, I can't conceive of how you can divorce Mormon culture from BYU or look at the two things separately. I think most people who have set foot on campus will agree that BYU is a microcosm of Mormon culture multiplied by an order of magnitude.

But regardless, I don't consider myself an exception to my culture. Quite the contrary, I am very much a product of it.

[Viking]

And the point I'm trying to make is that given the skyrocketing costs of a college education, which is over four times the rate of inflation, make a liberal arts education less and less appealing because the PV of future earnings yields a prohibitively low ROI.

Depends. My best buddy went to Princeton. His ROI is outta this world.

A good friend went to Swarthmore. His ROI is mid single digits, at best.

I'd bet the median PV of a degree from an Ivy or spending the $$ if you're an out-of-stater to go to Cal or the equiv significantly exceeds a BYU PV.

[UtahDan]

People who aren't keeping score should start. This is called the LA-Ditto (pronounced "luh-DIH-tow") and it is much more prestigious than a Cuffie.

[SeattleUte]

Depends. My best buddy went to Princeton. His ROI is outta this world.

A good friend went to Swarthmore. His ROI is mid single digits, at best.

I'd bet the median PV of a degree from an Ivy or spending the $$ if you're an out-of-stater to go to Cal or the equiv significantly exceeds a BYU PV.

Ivies and the like have way way more successful alumni. It's definitely worth it. Indy is such an anti-intellectual he doesn't even get that his avatar photo is a joke.

[LA Ute]

. . . it is much more prestigious than a Cuffie.

Oh, rubbish. I am just here hoping to be taught at the feet of you young whippersnappers.

[pellegrino]

You are attributing this to Mormonism and/or BYU? parents worried that their children are daydreamers and pursuing a path that can't support a family, people wanting to marry into security, and women wanting to be mothers instead of have careers. lol. You are a bright bulb, but this post was particularly dim.

The final sentence is particularly ridiculous. You obviously don't know very many Jews. Or Asians.

What a compliment, a lawyer called me a bright bulb! My life is now complete.

[DU Ute]

What a compliment, a lawyer called me a bright bulb! My life is now complete.

This has all the makings of a postgraduate degree smackdown!!!

[creekster]

What a compliment, a lawyer called me a bright bulb! My life is now complete.

You are aiming too low.