Honest question re BYU's course

[LA Ute]

My mentor in college was R.J. Snow, who encouraged me to focus my studies on what I wanted to be, not what I wanted to do. I've always loved that. For me it always added perspective to my education and career, and it was a simple statement of what a liberal education is all about. I've tried to teach my kids the same thing.

[TripletDaddy]

What a compliment, a lawyer called me a bright bulb! My life is now complete.

No other lawyer has ever found you to be intelligent?

Maybe I'm the one that I aiming too low.

[Shaka]

My mentor in college was R.J. Snow, who encouraged me to focus my studies on what I wanted to be, not what I wanted to do. I've always loved that. For me it always added perspective to my education and career, and it was a simple statement of what a liberalk education is all about. I've tried to teach my kids the same thing.

R.J. was an awesome guy.

[John McClain]

I did my undergraduate work at the University of Utah and took alot of liberal arts classes, gaining the relatively "unimpressive" degree in Political Science. Of course, I had wanted to be a lawyer since my first year in high school, so I knew that the undergraduate degree was merely a stepping stone to law school. Undergraduate classes were generally politically and socially neutral, although there were some professors with a not so hidden agenda. I remember a Sociology class where the professor would take every available opportunity to attack Mormonism. I always thought that he was intellectually dishonest for refusing to consider Mormon student's opinions.
When I began law school at BYU, several of the students opined that the legal education, particularly in the area of professional responsibility and ethics, would be taught with a particular religious emphasis. It was not. I remember some students asking Rex Lee why these subjects were not taught in the nature of a religion class, i.e., with scriptural references, etc. His response was that the law school would teach the principles established by the American Bar Association and allow the students to consider all the ramifications of the Ethics rules, kind of like the aphorism "I teach them correct principles and let them govern themselves". I thought it was wise at the time and over time I see even more wisdom in the approach. There were the mullahs within the student body who felt it was a cop out, but I was glad my professors took pains to let us figure out that Ethics rules were only a beginning and that we, by virtue of our religion, should be compelled to do more than the minimum. I have appreciated that lesson over time.
More recently, I had an interesting discussion with a partner in my firm who graduated from the UNM law school. He informed me that there is not a single person on the law school faculty who would even be considered politically moderate. Several of the law school professors have apparently persuaded UNM law students to turn down interviews with our firm because they consider working for a larger firm like ours, to be a failure to advocate for the disadvantaged and improverished (notwithstanding that we have a stellar reputation for our pro bono work and I particularly find it satisfying to assist Native Americans with their legal issues).
The point of all of this is that so-called liberal schools can be every bit as politically or socially one sided as any religious school. But religion is fair game for criticism, social activisim is not (at least from several academics' points of view). There were things I could criticize about the way BYU ran its law school when I was there, but nothing that outweighed what I consider to be an excellent legal education.
And BTW, we never had any prayers to start classes in law school.

[SeattleUte]

I did my undergraduate work at the University of Utah and took alot of liberal arts classes, gaining the relatively "unimpressive" degree in Political Science. Of course, I had wanted to be a lawyer since my first year in high school, so I knew that the undergraduate degree was merely a stepping stone to law school. Undergraduate classes were generally politically and socially neutral, although there were some professors with a not so hidden agenda. I remember a Sociology class where the professor would take every available opportunity to attack Mormonism. I always thought that he was intellectually dishonest for refusing to consider Mormon student's opinions.
When I began law school at BYU, several of the students opined that the legal education, particularly in the area of professional responsibility and ethics, would be taught with a particular religious emphasis. It was not. I remember some students asking Rex Lee why these subjects were not taught in the nature of a religion class, i.e., with scriptural references, etc. His response was that the law school would teach the principles established by the American Bar Association and allow the students to consider all the ramifications of the Ethics rules, kind of like the aphorism "I teach them correct principles and let them govern themselves". I thought it was wise at the time and over time I see even more wisdom in the approach. There were the mullahs within the student body who felt it was a cop out, but I was glad my professors took pains to let us figure out that Ethics rules were only a beginning and that we, by virtue of our religion, should be compelled to do more than the minimum. I have appreciated that lesson over time.
More recently, I had an interesting discussion with a partner in my firm who graduated from the UNM law school. He informed me that there is not a single person on the law school faculty who would even be considered politically moderate. Several of the law school professors have apparently persuaded UNM law students to turn down interviews with our firm because they consider working for a larger firm like ours, to be a failure to advocate for the disadvantaged and improverished (notwithstanding that we have a stellar reputation for our pro bono work and I particularly find it satisfying to assist Native Americans with their legal issues).
The point of all of this is that so-called liberal schools can be every bit as politically or socially one sided as any religious school. But religion is fair game for criticism, social activisim is not (at least from several academics' points of view). There were things I could criticize about the way BYU ran its law school when I was there, but nothing that outweighed what I consider to be an excellent legal education.
And BTW, we never had any prayers to start classes in law school.

:bsflag:

Have you been living under a rock?

It isn't unusual for the brightest students in law schools, particularly the leading ones, to opt for important government and public interest jobs, particularly at the outset. These usually lead to great law firm jobs. These jobs are highly competitive. In any event, if your firm really is a good firm I have no doubt you get scores of resumes for every person you hire, many of them from the University of New Mexico.

Further, what in the sam hill are you talking about "liberal univerisities"? You sound backward saying such a thing. All universities are liberal in the sense that they teach "liberal arts" and encourage free speech and thought, encourage pushing the envelope. True, most professors reject religous orthodoxy. People who gravitate toward a profession where empiricism is the rule tend to be that way. Professors also tend to be progressive in their thinking. They have always been that way. See Socrates, Plato. They also are by and large the best and the brightest in our society by whatever objective measures of intelligence you can think of, including competitiveness of their professions.

I salute your Utah professor for not allowing the student to bear his testimony in class. Unfortunately, you didn't learn in your Utah liberal arts classes (or BYU law school classes, apparently) that it's "a lot" not alot.

Seriously, you sound nuttier than BYU71 here.

[SeattleUte]

By the way, despite the fairly large number of kooks on the BYU faculty relative to other universities, I have good reason to believe that BYU professors are a lot more "liberal" than non-BYU professor active LDS membership. I'm certain of this.

[John McClain]

:bsflag:

Have you been living under a rock?

It isn't unusual for the brightest students in law schools, particularly the leading ones, to opt for important government and public interest jobs, particularly at the outset. These usually lead to great law firm jobs. These jobs are highly competitive. In any event, if your firm really is a good firm I have no doubt you get scores of resumes for every person you hire, many of them from the University of New Mexico.

Further, what in the sam hill are you talking about "liberal univerisities"? You sound backward saying such a thing. All universities are liberal in the sense that they teach "liberal arts" and encourage free speech and thought, encourage pushing the envelope. True, most professors reject religous orthodoxy. People who gravitate toward a profession where empiricism is the rule tend to be that way. Professors also tend to be progressive in their thinking. They have always been that way. See Socrates, Plato. They also are by and large the best and the brightest in our society by whatever objective measures of intelligence you can think of, including competitiveness of their professions.

I salute your Utah professor for not allowing the student to bear his testimony in class. Unfortunately, you didn't learn in your Utah liberal arts classes (or BYU law school classes, apparently) that it's "a lot" not alot.

Seriously, you sound nuttier than BYU71 here.

It's "religious" not "religous".
If you are comparing me to BYU71, I take it as a compliment (not complement).

[UtahDan]

I have good reason to believe that BYU professors are a lot more "liberal" than non-BYU professor active LDS membership. I'm certain of this.

I think this must be true. There are very few arch conservatives of any stripe anywhere who go into teaching, especially in a college setting.

[Jeff Lebowski]

By the way, despite the fairly large number of kooks on the BYU faculty relative to other universities, I have good reason to believe that BYU professors are a lot more "liberal" than non-BYU professor active LDS membership. I'm certain of this.

Absolutely.

[wuapinmon]

I think this must be true. There are very few arch conservatives of any stripe anywhere who go into teaching, especially in a college setting.

May I interest you in the vast majority of business professors anywhere I've ever been?

[UtahDan]

May I interest you in the vast majority of business professors anywhere I've ever been?

Hmm, that makes sense. I'm sure there are exceptions.

[pelagius]

Hmm, that makes sense. I'm sure there are exceptions.

The exception is a business school full of conservatives ... Professors in business schools may be "relatively conservative" compared to some other departments/colleges but certainly not relative to general population in the US (I think this holds pretty well for most of the top 50 business schools in the US).