Baptism numbers are decreasing.

[UtahDan]

http://www.mormontimes.com/mormon_vo...pins/?id=12892

As Elder M. Russell Ballard has said, "The Lord has never given us a mandate to be the biggest church -- in fact, he has said our numbers will be comparatively few -- but he has asked that we commit ourselves to living and sharing the gospel of Jesus Christ."

And yet anti-Mormons determined to disprove our faith and well-meaning members with false notions of the church's mission continue to misunderstand this. They tie the success of the LDS missionaries to the truthfulness of the LDS Church.

"If this is really God's church," they say. "Then why aren't more people joining? Why are the conversion rates decreasing?"

The answer is simple: people have their agency. The Lord never promised that the whole world -- or even the majority of its population -- would join his church. He only promised they would all be given the opportunity, if not in this life, in the next.

[grapevine]

Russell is being a realist there. I know missionaries that set baptism goals and there is a bit of competition. However it would be contrary to the order of heaven to force someone to accept the gospel. No on e is compelled no matter how persuasive you are.

[John McClain]

Know this, that every soul is free to choose his life and what he'll be; For this eternal truth is giv'n: That God will force no man to heav'n.
Anonymous, circa 1805.

[UtahDan]

I wonder if this means we will stop touting our numbers every general conference. I had always assumed the reason we did that was to show how well we were doing. Now I find out that large numbers were never on the Lord's agenda.

[byu71]

I wonder if this means we will stop touting our numbers every general conference. I had always assumed the reason we did that was to show how well we were doing. Now I find out that large numbers were never on the Lord's agenda.

LOL I was thinking the same thing, but didn't want to say it. I think I have hit my allotment for the day of cynical statements about my own people.

[Indy Coug]

I wonder if this means we will stop touting our numbers every general conference. I had always assumed the reason we did that was to show how well we were doing. Now I find out that large numbers were never on the Lord's agenda.

I'm not sure why you thought that's why they did it. I just assumed is was making an accounting of the state of the church, not a PR pat-on-the-back moment.

[smokymountainrain]

I wonder if this means we will stop touting our numbers every general conference. I had always assumed the reason we did that was to show how well we were doing. Now I find out that large numbers were never on the Lord's agenda.

Do they "tout" the numbers or just share them for the sake of sharing information? (edit: what Indy said)

Perhaps I'm missing something - I am usually asleep by that time after all.

[SuperGabers]

I'm just glad we will be more selective with the crazies we allow into the church...

[John McClain]

This makes me feel better about my mission experience. In 1973, in my mission (Franco-Belge), we had 93 baptisms for the entire year. In 1974, in an effort to clean up the rolls, weed out those who no longer desired membership, and otherwise deal with some out and out apostates, our mission president conducted church courts throughout the mission, and we ended up excommunicating about 500 people. So in essence, my mission was significantly in the red when it came to increasing church membership. Notwithstanding this, those experiences created a number of strong leaders in the Church today, both in France and amongst the missionaries who served there.

[byu71]

This makes me feel better about my mission experience. In 1973, in my mission (Franco-Belge), we had 93 baptisms for the entire year. In 1974, in an effort to clean up the rolls, weed out those who no longer desired membership, and otherwise deal with some out and out apostates, our mission president conducted church courts throughout the mission, and we ended up excommunicating about 500 people. So in essence, my mission was significantly in the red when it came to increasing church membership. Notwithstanding this, those experiences created a number of strong leaders in the Church today, both in France and amongst the missionaries who served there.

Were you there before or after the infamous problem and the AP that led many missionaries astray. I have two good friends who were there in the mid to late 60's and I can't remember if the problem was there before or after their service.

[Portland Ute]

I wonder if this means we will stop touting our numbers every general conference. I had always assumed the reason we did that was to show how well we were doing. Now I find out that large numbers were never on the Lord's agenda.

I'd always thought it might be interesting to announce the number of members that attended church at least one time per month during the past year...

[UtahDan]

I don't know if tout is the right word, but it seems clear to me that growth is offered as evidence that the message is true and well received. Certainly it is a morale builder. This is a pretty easy case to make, just go search for the word "growth" from general conference talks. I have a little bit of a hard time hearing "that wasn't ever important and in fact, smaller numbers are evidence of the truthfulness of the work."

[byu71]

I don't know if tout is the right word, but it seems clear to me that growth is offered as evidence that the message is true and well received. Certainly it is a morale builder. This is a pretty easy case to make, just go search for the word "growth" from general conference talks. I have a little bit of a hard time hearing "that wasn't ever important and in fact, smaller numbers are evidence of the truthfulness of the work."

I thought I heard that message a few times in confences past. Might be a figment of my imagination like hearing birth control is of the devil. I won't say anything cynical tomorrow to make up for today.

[John McClain]

I won't say anything cynical tomorrow to make up for today.

Then there's no reason for me to visit the board tomorrow - Killjoy!

[byu71]

Then there's no reason for me to visit the board tomorrow - Killjoy!

I am really worried when I appear before the judgement bar I will be told "your trite cynical remarks about the church kept Boylen from joining the church." Your punishment is to hang out with SU and Robin.