Unusual sexual discussion in Church

[KillerDog]

During the course of the standard lecture on pornography, masturbation (he even recommended that crazy pamphlet on the "factory), and sex Sunday, our Bishop sidetracked into a surpisingly interesting arena. He pointed out that there are many who use manipulation to encourage sex out of women, especially young women. He then counseled the ward members to help their daughters to be resistant to manipulation.

One brave soul raised his hand and pointed out that susceptibility to manipulation is a learned response. He then pointed out that, especially in a religious context, manipulation is common currency. His point was finally made that if we wanted to do what the Bishop recommended, we needed to stop manipulating our kids toward things that we thought were good because doing so made them susceptible to manipulation toward things that we thought were bad.

Bishop (a known manipulator) was stunned. Audience was stunned. K-dog was reading cougarboard and actually put it down to hear the exciting response but no excitement was forthcoming topic was ignored and Bishop returned to advice regarding computers in the family room etc.

My question, is this gentleman's point valid? Is there a concern that manipulation makes one susceptible to manipulation and does this have value in a discussion of raising children, especially in a religious tradition (let's assume for argument that all religion uses manipulation to control their adherents.)

[Indy Coug]

I think we first need to come to an agreement on what "manipulation" means before we can have a meaningful discussion here.

[Mormon Red Death]

I think we first need to come to an agreement on what "manipulation" means before we can have a meaningful discussion here.

If Jesus were here and he told you need to be baptized would you do it? <yes> then all you have to do is pray to know that we are god's messengers and that we are acting as if he were here.

That was part of discussions plans we had to teach when I was on my mission. Yes we had to teach it like that or you had to explain to the mission president why you didnt use the standard pattern sent out.

[jay santos]

That would have been a fun discussion.

I have teenage daughters and they have friends. I have some observations about this subject.

First, I would call manipulation in this sense using tactics of guilt, shame, bullying, lies, etc. to get someone to do something they otherwise wouldn't do. And yeah we do do some of that to kids, as parents as a church as a society.

I think I might argue that we don't condition kids though to be susceptible to manipulation by manipulating. I think kids are susceptible, specifically in law of chastity areas, due to low self esteem. That's the correlation to me. The higher the self esteem, the lower the chances of being manipulated into behavior they wouldn't otherwise do. So I guess you could say continually manipulating kids into behavior would lower their self esteem, thereby making them susceptible to more manipulation. But I don't think it's that easy to say. Every kid gets manipulated by adults in some way, but many still have strong self esteems.

[KillerDog]

I think we first need to come to an agreement on what "manipulation" means before we can have a meaningful discussion here.

That's an excellent point. I think the Bishop was aiming at things like making love conditional on obedience; encouraging actions you aren't comfortable with as a manifestation of love; and coercing a person through withholding of love or care.

[KillerDog]

That would have been a fun discussion.

I have teenage daughters and they have friends. I have some observations about this subject.

First, I would call manipulation in this sense using tactics of guilt, shame, bullying, lies, etc. to get someone to do something they otherwise wouldn't do. And yeah we do do some of that to kids, as parents as a church as a society.

I think I might argue that we don't condition kids though to be susceptible to manipulation by manipulating. I think kids are susceptible, specifically in law of chastity areas, due to low self esteem. That's the correlation to me. The higher the self esteem, the lower the chances of being manipulated into behavior they wouldn't otherwise do. So I guess you could say continually manipulating kids into behavior would lower their self esteem, thereby making them susceptible to more manipulation. But I don't think it's that easy to say. Every kid gets manipulated by adults in some way, but many still have strong self esteems.

I think the dude was trying to get at the idea that we are desensitized to manipulation if it happens a lot. My gut instinct is supportive of that but my personal experience says the opposite. I am particularly aware of attempted manipulation as a result of being manipulated too often in my younger years. The outcome is that I am fairly difficult to manipulate because I look for manipulation in every conversation and interaction.

[jay santos]

I think the dude was trying to get at the idea that we are desensitized to manipulation if it happens a lot. My gut instinct is supportive of that but my personal experience says the opposite. I am particularly aware of attempted manipulation as a result of being manipulated too often in my younger years. The outcome is that I am fairly difficult to manipulate because I look for manipulation in every conversation and interaction.

Agree, and to my point, I think kids with self esteem know when they're being manipulated and raise hell. This is causing me a ton of grief right now. But I know it's a good thing, even though as a parent it makes life harder.

[KillerDog]

Agree, and to my point, I think kids with self esteem know when they're being manipulated and raise hell. This is causing me a ton of grief right now. But I know it's a good thing, even though as a parent it makes life harder.

Another interesting tangent brought up on Sunday related to self esteem. The Bishop was encouraging self esteem as a bulwark against sexual sin. One brother asked how you can provide self esteem without making the child susceptible to the sin of pride. Also interesting thought but once again, elicited no comment.

[creekster]

Another interesting tangent brought up on Sunday related to self esteem. The Bishop was encouraging self esteem as a bulwark against sexual sin. One brother asked how you can provide self esteem without making the child susceptible to the sin of pride. Also interesting thought but once again, elicited no comment.

self-esteem = sense of self-worth

pride=(inter alia) exaggerated sense of slef worth

[SeattleUte]

Now I know why I'm so susceptible to manipulation by women. Something else to blame on my Mormon heritage.

[creekster]

Now I know why I'm so susceptible to manipulation by women. Something else to blame on my Mormon heritage.

I am sure it is always the wmoan's fault.

[Jeff Lebowski]

I can think of one form of religious manipulation that really bugs me. I hate it when you are in the middle of some kind of leadership meeting and somebody pulls out the "but I prayed about it and this is what we supposed to do" trump card as a last ditch effort to rescue a particularly bad idea.

Of course, the worst form of this as a tool of manipulation is "I have prayed about it and you are supposed to be my wife."

[Indy Coug]

I can think of one form of religious manipulation that really bugs me. I hate it when you are in the middle of some kind of leadership meeting and somebody pulls out the "but I prayed about it and this is what we supposed to do" trump card as a last ditch effort to rescue a particularly bad idea.

The correct response is to request that all of you pray about it so you can get a spiritual confirmation.

[Jacob]

Another interesting tangent brought up on Sunday related to self esteem. The Bishop was encouraging self esteem as a bulwark against sexual sin. One brother asked how you can provide self esteem without making the child susceptible to the sin of pride. Also interesting thought but once again, elicited no comment.

What's wrong with the people in your ward trying to derail a Bishop's lesson by bringing up tangents and non sequiturs?

[byu71]

There are two things that really set me off. One is if I feel someone is trying to manipulate me and what makes it worse is if they are using a "guilt trip" method to do it.

I would blame that on my folks and the church except two of my siblings do not react so strongly to that. As a matter of fact with a couple of them, guilt tripping is a method that can be used on them.