Geneology, I am doing it!

[Viking]

With respect, it is absolutely the opposite of disrespectful. It is an act of supreme love and respect. If one believes that the ordinances performed in the temple are saving and essential for exaltation, then submitting these names from the LDS point of view is very respectful. There is clearly a disconnect between the religious cultures, but it is not an act of disrespect.

Consider if your family was herded from their homes, stripped of possessions and forced to live in a different country in a literal ghetto. Then, family by family, you saw people taken and put on trains to an unknown locale, where all that was known is that people leave but don't come back.

Then consider if when it was your family's turn, you got on the train with your son and wife and seeing an opportunity to make a run for it, you jumped the train with your small family and ran, allowing your wife and son to run a little ahead, so as to shield them from potential Nazi gunfire. When you were shot, the last thing you saw was your son and wife running to safety, or at least relative safety.

Fast forward 60 years. Your family hid in Italy, protected by a small village for four years of terror. Every 3-5 years, your progenitors return to the village and pay respect for your sacrifice and indeed, the sacrifice of the village. Your child and his children live free in the U.S., grateful for their existence in the face of a purposeful effort to exterminate them.

You died for no other reason than your religious affiliation. To be symbolically baptized into another religion after your death, which again, came solely due to your Jewish faith, is utterly insulting to everyone, particularly those who honor your name in solemn remembrance of your death and their survival.

That's the story of my brother-in-law and that's why this is not an act of love or eternal caring but one of utter insult.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Consider if your family was herded from their homes, stripped of possessions and forced to live in a different country in a literal ghetto. Then, family by family, you saw people taken and put on trains to an unknown locale, where all that was known is that people leave but don't come back.

Then consider if when it was your family's turn, you got on the train with your son and wife and seeing an opportunity to make a run for it, you jumped the train with your small family and ran, allowing your wife and son to run a little ahead, so as to shield them from potential Nazi gunfire. When you were shot, the last thing you saw was your son and wife running to safety, or at least relative safety.

Fast forward 60 years. Your family hid in Italy, protected by a small village for four years of terror. Every 3-5 years, your progenitors return to the village and pay respect for your sacrifice and indeed, the sacrifice of the village. Your child and his children live free in the U.S., grateful for their existence in the face of a purposeful effort to exterminate them.

You died for no other reason than your religious affiliation. To be symbolically baptized into another religion after your death, which again, came solely due to your Jewish faith, is utterly insulting to everyone, particularly those who honor your name in solemn remembrance of your death and their survival.

That's the story of my brother-in-law and that's why this is not an act of love or eternal caring but one of utter insult.

That's funny that you think we need that spelled out.

[Viking]

That's funny that you think we need that spelled out.

Who's "we"?

[TripletDaddy]

Consider if your family was herded from their homes, stripped of possessions and forced to live in a different country in a literal ghetto. Then, family by family, you saw people taken and put on trains to an unknown locale, where all that was known is that people leave but don't come back.

Then consider if when it was your family's turn, you got on the train with your son and wife and seeing an opportunity to make a run for it, you jumped the train with your small family and ran, allowing your wife and son to run a little ahead, so as to shield them from potential Nazi gunfire. When you were shot, the last thing you saw was your son and wife running to safety, or at least relative safety.

Fast forward 60 years. Your family hid in Italy, protected by a small village for four years of terror. Every 3-5 years, your progenitors return to the village and pay respect for your sacrifice and indeed, the sacrifice of the village. Your child and his children live free in the U.S., grateful for their existence in the face of a purposeful effort to exterminate them.

You died for no other reason than your religious affiliation. To be symbolically baptized into another religion after your death, which again, came solely due to your Jewish faith, is utterly insulting to everyone, particularly those who honor your name in solemn remembrance of your death and their survival.

That's the story of my brother-in-law and that's why this is not an act of love or eternal caring but one of utter insult.

Sorry, still don't really get it. Is it utterly insulting to baptize people that were killed during the Crusades? What about the Salem Witch trials?

Out of curiosity, does this amorphous Jewish council have a problem with baptizing deceased Jews that were not involved in any way with the Holocaust? Or is the uproar confined strictly to those WW2 Jews?

[creekster]

Consider if your family was herded from their homes, stripped of possessions and forced to live in a different country in a literal ghetto. Then, family by family, you saw people taken and put on trains to an unknown locale, where all that was known is that people leave but don't come back.

Then consider if when it was your family's turn, you got on the train with your son and wife and seeing an opportunity to make a run for it, you jumped the train with your small family and ran, allowing your wife and son to run a little ahead, so as to shield them from potential Nazi gunfire. When you were shot, the last thing you saw was your son and wife running to safety, or at least relative safety.

Fast forward 60 years. Your family hid in Italy, protected by a small village for four years of terror. Every 3-5 years, your progenitors return to the village and pay respect for your sacrifice and indeed, the sacrifice of the village. Your child and his children live free in the U.S., grateful for their existence in the face of a purposeful effort to exterminate them.

You died for no other reason than your religious affiliation. To be symbolically baptized into another religion after your death, which again, came solely due to your Jewish faith, is utterly insulting to everyone, particularly those who honor your name in solemn remembrance of your death and their survival.

That's the story of my brother-in-law and that's why this is not an act of love or eternal caring but one of utter insult.

I understand that. What is the insult? Its like showing up to a somber funeral dressed in bright colors because you want to celebrate a life rather than mourn a death. The mourners might think you are stupid or a fruitcake, but so what? They mourn how they want and you remember how you want.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Who's "we"?

Anybody. We are not idiots, viking. We understand the basic argument. You seem to imply that anyone who is not outraged by this is ignorant of history and completely insensitive. Horseshit. Some of us happen to agree with Rabbi Zippel.

That being said, I think people have a right to define what is offensive to them and the church is right to stop doing it since there seems to be a sufficiently sizable subset of Jews upset about that it is not worth making waves.

[Viking]

Anybody. We are not idiots, viking. We understand the basic argument. You seem to imply that anyone who is not outraged by this is ignorant of history and completely insensitive. Horseshit. Some of us happen to agree with Rabbi Zippel.

That being said, I think people have a right to define what is offensive to them and the church is right to stop doing it since there seems to be a sufficiently sizable subset of Jews upset about that it is not worth making waves.

I'm sorry if it seems I'm treating you and others like idiots. I'm really not trying to...I know there's split opinion on both sides regarding the issue. I've made my views known and I'll digress from the conversation at this point.

It's not an unemotional issue for me: my own grandfather had to leave Norway in Dec 1939 because of his obviously jewish last name and was very fortunate to have been advised by the US consulate to do so. I've always self-identified more Jewish than Mormon throughout my life as well.

[Dwight Schr-ute]

More info on Helen Radkey

http://www.sltrib.com/faith/ci_13926671

Whoa. I went to high school with a Matthew Olmstead and just really curious when I saw that quote. Then in the article is says that they were twin boys and it definitely was the Olmstead twins. Sounds like they had a lot going on in that house. No wonder they spent all of their time outside playing tennis.

[Clark Addison]

Consider if your family was herded from their homes, stripped of possessions and forced to live in a different country in a literal ghetto. Then, family by family, you saw people taken and put on trains to an unknown locale, where all that was known is that people leave but don't come back.

Then consider if when it was your family's turn, you got on the train with your son and wife and seeing an opportunity to make a run for it, you jumped the train with your small family and ran, allowing your wife and son to run a little ahead, so as to shield them from potential Nazi gunfire. When you were shot, the last thing you saw was your son and wife running to safety, or at least relative safety.

Fast forward 60 years. Your family hid in Italy, protected by a small village for four years of terror. Every 3-5 years, your progenitors return to the village and pay respect for your sacrifice and indeed, the sacrifice of the village. Your child and his children live free in the U.S., grateful for their existence in the face of a purposeful effort to exterminate them.

You died for no other reason than your religious affiliation. To be symbolically baptized into another religion after your death, which again, came solely due to your Jewish faith, is utterly insulting to everyone, particularly those who honor your name in solemn remembrance of your death and their survival.

That's the story of my brother-in-law and that's why this is not an act of love or eternal caring but one of utter insult.

I think one of the disconnects is the bolded part. Technically, this isn't what Baptisms for the Dead are doing. What the ordinance does (in theory) is give them access to the baptism if they so desire. It is a subtle difference, but an important one, I think. Because it is subtle; however, it is not likely to be recognized in a conversation as charged as this one.

For the record, my position is similar to JL's. I struggle to see how this is a big issue; and tend to think it is a (relatively) small group of folks taking offense when none is given nor intended. Having said that, these are sensitive issues, and the Church should, as it has attempted, cease to do this work for these folks.

[Dwight Schr-ute]

My grandfather converted from being raised Jewish to Mormonism in the 1940's. He was the first LDS bishop of Jewish descent. He was a member of the Salt Lake Police Department and organized the chaplains corps which he managed for many, many years and was well known throughout the community for bringing the many faiths throughout the valley together. As he grew older, he spent much of his time doing the genealogical work for his family and felt a strong desire to be sealed to them through temple work. He lost many family members to the Holocaust.

The proxy work performed in the temple carries many sensitivities no matter the religious or cultural background of those whose names were submitted. Considering this, I think that genealogy should be a personal matter and those enthusiasts who spend their time digging up other people's ancestors could probably better utilized in some other fashion. But I am not going to apologize for the sacredness in which my grandfather performed this work. Especially to Helen Radkey.

[Dwight Schr-ute]

And now Anne Frank. In the Dominican Republic. For the 9th time.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...ef=mostpopular

[TripletDaddy]

And now Anne Frank. In the Dominican Republic. For the 9th time.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...ef=mostpopular

In spite of everything, I still believe that Mormons are really good at heart.

[Uncle Ted]

And now Anne Frank. In the Dominican Republic. For the 9th time.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...ef=mostpopular

It is not going to happen again... KBYU has cancel Baptizing for the Stars:

http://motabenquirer.blogspot.com/20...izing-for.html

[Uncle Ted]

And now Anne Frank. In the Dominican Republic. For the 9th time.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...ef=mostpopular

I have to wonder why Anne Frank was baptized nine times. Is the church really that bad with record keeping? Maybe we need less temples and better record systems.

[Jeff Lebowski]

I have to wonder why Anne Frank was baptized nine times. Is the church really that bad with record keeping? Maybe we need less temples and better record systems.

I have heard that many of the names you do in the temple have most likely been done 5-6 times prior. Not sure how true that is, but incidents like this make you wonder.