Geneology, I am doing it!

[Uncle Ted]

Your "shocked" smiley indicated that, but I could have misinterpreted this.

I'm pretty sensitive to this issue. My brother-in-law (here with us right now) lost two of his grandparents in the Holocaust. His father was hidden in the Italian Alps for years to survive. Ask him how he feels about having his deceased grandmother baptized posthumously as a mormon but be sure to duck first.

So you think that members of the church should be excommunicated if they submit a Jewish holocaust victims name to the church's system and the system allows it? That would give me a good reason not to do genealogy.

I know some Native Americans that don't want their ancestors baptized by the LDS church either given the way BY and others mormon leaders treated them. Then the LDS church blamed for things like the mormon meadow massacre. Good hell, over 90% of the Native Americans were killed off by the Europeans in one way or another. Don't you think that the Native Americans should get the same consideration as the Jews by the LDS church? And what about the blacks? They have gone through some crap as well. Utah was the only territory to have slavery, not to mention the great amount bigotry demonstrated with the whole "negro doctrine" thing. I still don't understand what the church has done to the Jew in the past to be the only group to get special consideration. Were Dieter F. Uchtdorf's parents nazis or something?

[Jeff Lebowski]

I don't think you appreciate how truly awful baptizing the dead--particularly those murdered in the Holocaust--is perceived to be by those of the Jewish faith. It's beyond insulting. I have partners who lost both sets of grandparents, aunts and uncles in the Holocaust and it would devastate them if any of these family members were baptized for the dead. The only analogy I can think of is the disgrace african american families would feel knowing that after their sons and fathers were lynched, a group of Klan members dragged their bodies behind a speeding car. It's that, but worse.

The LDS church never had an excuse for this but after the first issue and agreement to stop, it definitely deserves significant shame.

Jews and Mormons should be best friends forever...this sort of stuff is just nonsense.

You should contact Rabbi Zippel and convince him that he is not sufficiently devastated. I am SHOCKED at his lack of outrage. He must not know any holocaust survivors.

For Rabbi Benny Zippel of Chabad Lubavitch of Utah, the whole issue is a tempest in a teapot.

"It's totally meaningless as far as I'm concerned," he said. "For someone to go into the water and say some words and be immersed — why does it matter? To me, it doesn't. I would just let it go."

Rabbi Zippel bases his feelings on the Jewish concept of conversion, which requires thorough research, intense study and approval by a rabbinical court.

"You cannot possibly have a person convert without their knowledge," he said. "So to me, when we're dealing with posthumous conversion, it's an oxymoron. If it is a conversion, it can't be posthumous; if it is posthumous, it cannot be conversion."

So as far as Rabbi Zippel is concerned, LDS baptism for the dead is "a non-issue."

"I'm not offended by it," he said, "because to me, it is meaningless. So why should I care?"

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/7...dead.html?pg=3

[TripletDaddy]

You should contact Rabbi Zippel and convince him that he is not sufficiently devastated. I am SHOCKED at his lack of outrage. He must not know any holocaust survivors.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/7...dead.html?pg=3

You can contact him but you better duck first! :box:

[Jeff Lebowski]

You can contact him but you better duck first! :box:

Meh. That dude on the right must not punch very hard. The guy is only down for five seconds (and it's a quick count!) and then he pops right up good as new.

[Uncle Ted]

You should contact Rabbi Zippel and convince him that he is not sufficiently devastated. I am SHOCKED at his lack of outrage. He must not know any holocaust survivors.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/7...dead.html?pg=3

I should contact about the native americans. Maybe he knows some of them.

[Northwestcoug]

New policy: Possible Church disciplinary action for hacking the system...

However we feel about baptizing deceased Holocaust victims, the church is taking it seriously. They obviously feel it's important to broadcast their apology.

But good hell, threatening disciplinary action??? What does that even mean? Probation for retired couples who take geneology seriously? WTF, church spokesperson?

[creekster]

I dont understand this issue at all. I am guilty as Viking charges in that the anger and upset apparently felt by some of the jewish faith eludes me completely. I am unable to empathize or comprehend. OTOH, I fail to understand the church's reaction. Disciplinary action for submitting names to the temple? Seriously? That makes no sense to me whatsoever. I allow there may be good reasons for some of this, but I have yet to read it here, not even in Vikings post, or anywhere else.

[Viking]

So you think that members of the church should be excommunicated if they submit a Jewish holocaust victims name to the church's system and the system allows it? That would give me a good reason not to do genealogy.

I know some Native Americans that don't want their ancestors baptized by the LDS church either given the way BY and others mormon leaders treated them. Then the LDS church blamed for things like the mormon meadow massacre. Good hell, over 90% of the Native Americans were killed off by the Europeans in one way or another. Don't you think that the Native Americans should get the same consideration as the Jews by the LDS church? And what about the blacks? They have gone through some crap as well. Utah was the only territory to have slavery, not to mention the great amount bigotry demonstrated with the whole "negro doctrine" thing. I still don't understand what the church has done to the Jew in the past to be the only group to get special consideration. Were Dieter F. Uchtdorf's parents nazis or something?

That's not my decision to make. I just think it's completely disrespectful and I'm sure not all do so, but my jewish friends agree with me.

[creekster]

That's not my decision to make. I just think it's completely disrespectful and I'm sure not all do so, but my Jewish friends agree with me.

With respect, it is absolutely the opposite of disrespectful. It is an act of supreme love and respect. If one believes that the ordinances performed in the temple are saving and essential for exaltation, then submitting these names from the LDS point of view is very respectful. There is clearly a disconnect between the religious cultures, but it is not an act of disrespect.

[ERCougar]

The Jews have been beaten up for their faith literally and figuratively since the beginning of time. My guess is this is a rare opportunity for them beat on someone else for a change.

Um...wow.

I agree that the Church's response to the concern has been sensitive and appropriate--thank goodness they didn't consult the CUF collective. "You just don't UNDERSTAND what we're trying to do for you!"

[Viking]

With respect, it is absolutely the opposite of disrespectful. It is an act of supreme love and respect. If one believes that the ordinances performed in the temple are saving and essential for exaltation, then submitting these names from the LDS point of view is very respectful. There is clearly a disconnect between the religious cultures, but it is not an act of disrespect.

Oy vey.

[Indy Coug]

Indy, your characterization is absolutely revolting.

What "characterization"? Your reading comprehension is revolting.

[Viking]

From indycoug:

The Jews have been beaten up for their faith literally and figuratively since the beginning of time. My guess is this is a rare opportunity for them beat on someone else for a change.

the one above. i don't really feel like i have to explain my disgust.

[Indy Coug]

From indycoug:



the one above. i don't really feel like i have to explain my disgust.

So your ability to quote the correct post is revolting too?

[Uncle Ted]

That's not my decision to make. I just think it's completely disrespectful and I'm sure not all do so, but my jewish friends agree with me.

I think it is disrespectful as well but it shouldn't be only for one group. That is why I proposed the general "blacklist" mechanism for keeping one's ancestors out of the highest kingdom. Then any group can submit the names they don't want the church trying to save and would only have themselves to blame when someday they are greeted by very upset family members in heaven.