Geneology, I am doing it!

[Jeff Lebowski]

Can someone explain why Jews care that Mormons baptize deceased Jews vicariously? Do Jews believe in vicarious temple work?

Enjoy:

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/op...-13955402.html

The key point is, surely, that all religions believe that the soul, after death, at last knows what’s what — whether Hinduism, Free Presbyterianism, Jainism, Judaism, Islam, Catholicism or whatever is the true religion. What if it’s Mormonism? What if it’s an everyday occurrence on the other side that Catholics and Protestants are left standing dumbstruck at the Gates, gasping: “Mormons! Who’d have believed it?” And maybe a wife berating her husband: “There! I told you it would be the Mormons! But would you listen?! Now it’s eternal hellfire for the two of us, I hope you’re satisfied.”
In that scenario, shouldn’t all members of all other religions be literally eternally grateful to the Mormons for sharing their saving grace even unto and after death?

If, on the other hand, it isn’t the Mormons at all, those who turn out to have been right can wave a merry farewell to the crestfallen followers of Brigham Young as they trundle downwards to their eternal comeuppance.

What’s the problem?

[Uncle Ted]

Enjoy:

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/op...-13955402.html

The key point is, surely, that all religions believe that the soul, after death, at last knows what’s what — whether Hinduism, Free Presbyterianism, Jainism, Judaism, Islam, Catholicism or whatever is the true religion. What if it’s Mormonism? What if it’s an everyday occurrence on the other side that Catholics and Protestants are left standing dumbstruck at the Gates, gasping: “Mormons! Who’d have believed it?” And maybe a wife berating her husband: “There! I told you it would be the Mormons! But would you listen?! Now it’s eternal hellfire for the two of us, I hope you’re satisfied.”
In that scenario, shouldn’t all members of all other religions be literally eternally grateful to the Mormons for sharing their saving grace even unto and after death?

If, on the other hand, it isn’t the Mormons at all, those who turn out to have been right can wave a merry farewell to the crestfallen followers of Brigham Young as they trundle downwards to their eternal comeuppance.

What’s the problem?

So we finish the eighteenth and he's gonna stiff me. And I say, "Hey, Lama, hey, how about a little something, you know, for the effort, you know." And he says, "Oh, uh, there won't be any money, but when you die, you may be saved thanks to the mormons" So I got that goin' for me, which is nice.

[UtahDan]

I was referring more to their present mindset after having left the church at some point in the past. Maybe I'm naive, but I believe there might be some out there that have let the past go and are no longer disgruntled and have moved on to other things in life, rather than keeping their emotional axe to the grindstone, constantly on the outlook for more perceived wrongdoings.

I see, you mean it in the angry sense. It can also mean dissatisfied, disaffected or discontented which was the sense I was thinking of. But I see nothing wrong with one trying to right the injustices with which they are most intimately familiar.

[Pheidippides]

Can someone explain why Jews care that Mormons baptize deceased Jews vicariously? Do Jews believe in vicarious temple work?

I had this discussion with Jewish coworker yesterday at lunch.

He had never heard of the issue. And when I explained it he thought it was silly that it's an issue.

[Indy Coug]

The Jews have been beaten up for their faith literally and figuratively since the beginning of time. My guess is this is a rare opportunity for them beat on someone else for a change.

Hopefully everyone has finally gotten the memo and will knock this stuff off, no matter how unreasonable the request might be from our point of view. When the Millennium rolls around, then Wiesenthal's parents can show up in resurrected form and tell Radkey to knock that shit off.

[Moliere]

Why can't there be a policy that people can only submit names of people that are their direct ancestors? Seems like that would fix the problem. If some organization comes back and tells me I can't baptize them I'd ask them why they have more authority over my own ancestors than I do.

[Indy Coug]

More info on Helen Radkey

http://www.sltrib.com/faith/ci_13926671

"It was an interesting childhood," says Matthew Olmstead, one of her 34-year-old sons and an information-technology-management consultant in Los Angeles. "She was on a crusade ... to single-handedly take down the Mormon religion. She was so consumed by that, we had a hard time relating to it."

[TripletDaddy]

Helen Radkey is a side story. Who cares if she is anti-Mormon? The LDS Church had already agreed to stop the practice and apparently one slipped past the goalie. We messed up. is Indy upset that an anti-mormon pointed out the faux pas? why?

I think the Church has handled this curious sensitivity pretty well....swift response, no attempts to obfuscate or dissemble. And no effort to explain the obvious....which is, how in blazes can the Church prevent this from happening again? Seems impossible to preclude all attempts to baptize deceased Jews from that era. The best the Church can do is encourage members to avoid the practice and if it does happen again, apologize and move on.

From a doctrinal perspective, how can this be "un-done?" Does a Jew accept the Church's apology or does he/she now view baptized Halocaust Jew's as Mormons? I don't get it.

[Indy Coug]

Helen Radkey is a side story. Who cares if she is anti-Mormon? The LDS Church had already agreed to stop the practice and apparently one slipped past the goalie. We messed up. is Indy upset that an anti-mormon pointed out the faux pas? why?

I think the Church has handled this curious sensitivity pretty well....swift response, no attempts to obfuscate or dissemble. And no effort to explain the obvious....which is, how in blazes can the Church prevent this from happening again? Seems impossible to preclude all attempts to baptize deceased Jews from that era. The best the Church can do is encourage members to avoid the practice and if it does happen again, apologize and move on.

From a doctrinal perspective, how can this be "un-done?" Does a Jew accept the Church's apology or does he/she now view baptized Halocaust Jew's as Mormons? I don't get it.

When the thread gets this many replies in, most items are side stories, tangents or completely off-topic. I assumed that either some Jewish watchdog group or the LDS church discovered this most recent violation of the agreement. Since it was neither, I thought it interesting to find out who blew the whistle and what dog they had in this "fight".

[Uncle Ted]

New policy: Possible Church disciplinary action for hacking the system...

The Church keeps its word and is absolutely firm in its commitment to not accept the names of Holocaust victims for proxy baptism.

It takes a good deal of deception and manipulation to get an improper submission through the safeguards we have put in place.

While no system is foolproof in preventing the handful of individuals who are determined to falsify submissions we are committed to taking action against individual abusers by suspending the submitter’s access privileges. We will also consider whether other Church disciplinary action should be taken.

It is distressing when an individual willfully violates the Church’s policy and something that should be understood to be an offering based on love and respect becomes a source of contention.

[Viking]

New policy: Possible Church disciplinary action for hacking the system...

I don't think you appreciate how truly awful baptizing the dead--particularly those murdered in the Holocaust--is perceived to be by those of the Jewish faith. It's beyond insulting. I have partners who lost both sets of grandparents, aunts and uncles in the Holocaust and it would devastate them if any of these family members were baptized for the dead. The only analogy I can think of is the disgrace african american families would feel knowing that after their sons and fathers were lynched, a group of Klan members dragged their bodies behind a speeding car. It's that, but worse.

The LDS church never had an excuse for this but after the first issue and agreement to stop, it definitely deserves significant shame.

Jews and Mormons should be best friends forever...this sort of stuff is just nonsense.

[Viking]

When the thread gets this many replies in, most items are side stories, tangents or completely off-topic. I assumed that either some Jewish watchdog group or the LDS church discovered this most recent violation of the agreement. Since it was neither, I thought it interesting to find out who blew the whistle and what dog they had in this "fight".

Indy, your characterization is absolutely revolting.

[Uncle Ted]

I don't think you appreciate how truly awful baptizing the dead--particularly those murdered in the Holocaust--is perceived to be by those of the Jewish faith. It's beyond insulting. I have partners who lost both sets of grandparents, aunts and uncles in the Holocaust and it would devastate them if any of these family members were baptized for the dead. The only analogy I can think of is the disgrace african american families would feel knowing that after their sons and fathers were lynched, a group of Klan members dragged their bodies behind a speeding car. It's that, but worse.

The LDS church never had an excuse for this but after the first issue and agreement to stop, it definitely deserves significant shame.

Jews and Mormons should be best friends forever...this sort of stuff is just nonsense.

Why do you assume that I don't appreciate the above?

I just find it interesting that the church can't just create a simple "blacklist" of people's ancestors, in general, that the living descendants don't want the church to baptize. Let people submit their ancestor's full names, birth and death dates. If a name that is submitted and put on the "blacklist" matches they don't get baptized in the temple. Less temple work for the mormons to do and no more issues you point out above. Win-win for both parties.

[Viking]

Why do you assume that I don't appreciate the above?

I just find it interesting that the church can't just create a simple "blacklist" of people's ancestors, in general, that the living descendants don't want the church to baptize. Let people submit their ancestor's full names, birth and death dates. If a name that is submitted and put on the "blacklist" matches they don't get baptized in the temple. Less temple work for the mormons to do and no more issues you point out above. Win-win for both parties.

Your "shocked" smiley indicated that, but I could have misinterpreted this.

I'm pretty sensitive to this issue. My brother-in-law (here with us right now) lost two of his grandparents in the Holocaust. His father was hidden in the Italian Alps for years to survive. Ask him how he feels about having his deceased grandmother baptized posthumously as a mormon but be sure to duck first.

[TripletDaddy]

Viking has spoken. He knows Jews that were affected by the Halocaust.