Elder Holland's Book of Mormon talk

[TripletDaddy]

Sorry, I'm made my position very clear on what I'm going to do if he persists in his arrogant attacks.

This will not change until or unless he does.

I'm all for open discussion. I'm not for the constant diarrhea of attacks, name calling and blatant dis-respectful toward the church and others who believe and why they believe.

It won't be tolerated by me any longer. If you guys want to effect change then he's the one you need to approach.

ok, fair enough. you do not need to be lectured, so I will respect your wishes on this issue. If you want to vent, though, you can always shoot me a PM. As Mike Gundy said, "Come after me! I'm a man! I'm 40!"

ps I'm not 40, btw, so please don't spread rumors!

[RockyBalboa]

Hope you don't mind me butting in Rocky, while I empathize with you, I think DDD's advice is good.

If you want to tell me to kiss your butt, I understand

And he's welcome to his opinion, but after literally YEARS of SU's disrepsect, trolling, and bitter attacks on those who believe and why they believe....then it's time to for someone to step in and do something and if that person is me, then that's fine.

There are plenty of non-believers here who've been able to express their opinions with vigor without constantly rubbing it the believers noses like SU revels in doing.

There isn't ANY reason why this forum can't have more respect and decorum in it.

[Art Vandelay]

I was meditating on this thread and a scenario occurred to me. I pretended there was no Joseph Smith and no LDS Church. Hey, Lebowski used to pretend there was no universe when he was a kid. Compared to that, my little exercise was a snap. So I pretended there was no Joseph Smith and no LDS Church, and that a young man I knew, in his early twenties, brought me a manuscript of a book. The Book of Mormon. And he told me, not that it had been translated by the power of Godfrom golden plates brought by an angel, but that he wrote it. Let's say his name is Joey, and he can read and write well, but has only a third grade education. So I took the manuscript and read it. What would my reaction be?

Some possiblities:

"Joey, this is interesting, I see the King James Bible was an inspiration. What's with the old English? You may want to have some expert edit the book and help you get that exactly right. Why did you copy all those pages out of the King James Bible? If you want to publish this your editor may make you take them out, they really interrupt the narrative flow."

"Joey, this is pretty impressive. Did you do it yourself?"

I could go on and on. I doubt I'd say this:

"Joey, come on. You didn't write this. Fess up. We both know you got this book from an angel of the Lord. No one could write this, least of all you."

My point is not to belittle the Book of Mormon, although Holland's "argument" invites us to analyze it with a critical eye. My point is to illustrate the absurdity--the utter absurdity--of saying it's more likely Joseph Smith got the book from an angel than that he wrote it.

Why don't we say the same thing about Bach, Mozart, Wagner, Shakespeare, Tolstoy? "It's more likely that an angel brought his work from God than that a man wrote it? He's lying that he wrote it."

By the way, it's a proven fact that there's no academic prerequisite for artistic genius (I'm giving the Book of Mormon the benefit of the doubt calling it a work of genius, as very little literary cricism or exegesis has been done on it, almost none by non-apologists).

No, actually I don't. I get why some would not love him (which is a sin, btw...), but SeattleUte is an admitted apostate that does not believe that which we believe. Also, we spend much of our time here talking about the Gospel or things related to the LDS church. What else does everyone expect him to say? To expect him to say nothing is not realistic. We are all registered users here because we want to post.

My personal opinion: I can understand those who have taken offense at some of SU's comments about Elder Holland in this thread. I admire, try to honor and greatly respect those I willing sustain as prophets, seers, and revelators. I roll my eyes at many of his and others comments (as I'm sure they do with nearly all of mine), but have not personally been offended. We don't agree on Elder Hollands talk- I was inspired and uplifted by it, SU I'm guessing not so much. If it was a section from the Illiad, the opposite would likely be true.

I also like DDD's remarks that should we, or more accurately I (since I can't speak for anyone else) should not be surprised when an admitted apostate and atheist (or is it agnostic I honestly get you and Finderson confused on this subject) disagrees with much if not most things presented in an LDS gospel discussion. Does he sometimes come across as condescending and borderline offensive? Probably... but so did my wife when she was pregnant and I forgot to pick up her favorite ice-cream.

As to the analogy of "Joey" I find it brilliant and a good way to look at the Book of Mormon from a true neophyte perspective (which neither SU nor likely anyone on here is). I think uneducated, even obtuse, men and women throughout history have shown flashes if not extended periods of genius (Raymond Babbit knew how many toothpicks were on the ground, yet didn't realize the value of the Blue-light specials at K-mart). As Cowboy said I don't know what the odds are of Joseph Smith writing the BoM unaided, but as Lloyd Christmas so eloquently said, "there is a chance". I don't think the historical argument holds much sway, or more important much depth. The roots are too tenuous and subject to the heat or wind of SU or like-minded thinkers arguments. However, a belief based upon confirmation of the Spirit (which is another subject that apostates and believers likely have very different feelings towards) provides much deeper roots and a more solid foundation, at least it did in my case. I also agree with DDD's hypothesis that Elder Holland would likely agree a knowledge of the "truth" is more likely to come from Moroni's challenge than a hypothetical deconstruct of what Joseph, Hyrum or Emma may have been thinking on the morning of June 27, 1844.

I think Elder Hollands talk was geared toward the believer and much like the Word of Wisdom to help strengthen the "weakest of the weak" (which is likely why I enjoyed it so much). It was a halftime speech meant more to inspire than to convert.

I think you are fighting a losing battle Rock. I admire you waving your Title of Liberty as you repeatedly challenge SU to meet you behind the gym. However, I seriously doubt this will either change SU's posting style (which many people of all religious perspectives find entertaining if not enlightening), or be as praiseworthy a cause to seek after as it may initally appear to be.

I'm tired, likely making little sense but this somewhat reminds me of the dilemma Coach Dale faced when he was having trouble assimilating with the local society. As a friendly towns-member told him.

• "Look, mister, there's... two kinds of dumb, uh... guy that gets naked and runs out in the snow and barks at the moon, and, uh, guy who does the same thing in my living room. First one don't matter, the second one you're kinda forced to deal with"

. Any guess on who outlasted the other?

[UtahDan]

Art, you are very quickly ascending to the top of my Rookie of the Year list. Excellent, balanced, well thought out post.

I don't have a problem with SU. In fact, I think without him as a foil (I hope you take that in the spirit I intend it SU) this place would be pretty dull. We all know what he does and I suspect that, like Rocky, it is the conflict he enjoys most (or at least that is part of it). The thing that distinguishes SU here, however, is that he does say thought provoking things from time to time, even if they sometimes come packaged in polemics. I have internalized most of what he has to say and think I understand where he is coming from, so it is easy for me to filter out the little jabs and barbs and take an interest in what is being said at the core. As opposed to others who, when you strip away the jabs, barbs and taunts, you aren't actually left with anything.

I also like that SU is able to concede a well made point. A lot people can't even recognize a well made point, let alone make the decision to concede it. It means he listens. Not everyone does.

[wuapinmon]

Art, you are very quickly ascending to the top of my Rookie of the Year list.

Whoa. Whoa. Whoa. Whoa. Whoa. Whoa. Whoa!

This is not my Batman glass....and

JIC > Art

[scottie]

Art, you are very quickly ascending to the top of my Rookie of the Year list. Excellent, balanced, well thought out post.

I don't have a problem with SU. In fact, I think without him as a foil (I hope you take that in the spirit I intend it SU) this place would be pretty dull. We all know what he does and I suspect that, like Rocky, it is the conflict he enjoys most (or at least that is part of it). The thing that distinguishes SU here, however, is that does say thought provoking things from time to time, even if they sometimes come packaged in polemics. I have internalized most of what he has to say and think I understand where he is coming from, so it is easy for me to filter out the little jabs and barbs and take an interest in what is being said at that core. As opposed to others who, when you strip away the jabs, barbs and taunts, you aren't actually left with anything.

I also like that SU is able to concede a well made point. A lot people can't even recognize a well made point, let alone make the decision to concede it. It means he listens. Not everyone does.

Well said.

[Art Vandelay]

Whoa. Whoa. Whoa. Whoa. Whoa. Whoa. Whoa!

This is not my Batman glass....and

JIC > Art

I'm ok with that...wait a second, that is an "I" not an "H"... so you aren't saying Jesus H ...since it appears I'm not losing to irreverent usage of a name for divinity, I have one question. Who is JIC?

[UtahDan]

Whoa. Whoa. Whoa. Whoa. Whoa. Whoa. Whoa!

This is not my Batman glass....and

JIC > Art

I said ascending. I didn't say he had displaced my buddy JIC. But JIC might need to step his game up. Just sayin'.

[Rosebud]

I'm ok with that...wait a second, that is an "I" not an "H"... so you aren't saying Jesus H ...since it appears I'm not losing to irreverent usage of a name for divinity, I have one question. Who is JIC?

You know Art, you're only a "rookie" because you're so self-deprecating. You're smart... maybe it's time to add a little pomp to your work .

[wuapinmon]

You know Art, you're only a "rookie" because you're so self-deprecating. You're smart... maybe it's time to add a little pomp to your work .

Practice what you preach, sledgirl?.

[wuapinmon]

I'm ok with that...wait a second, that is an "I" not an "H"... so you aren't saying Jesus H ...since it appears I'm not losing to irreverent usage of a name for divinity, I have one question. Who is JIC?

jarid in cedar, of course. Art, you could be a contender for the Cuffie if you'll just type these words, "I am a bishop."

[Art Vandelay]

jarid in cedar, of course. Art, you could be a contender for the Cuffie if you'll just type these words, "I am a bishop."

Oh Jarid in Cedar... I agree I like him better than myself too.

I am a bishop and I DRIVE A DODGE STRATUS!

[Rosebud]

Practice what you preach, sledgirl?.

I've got plenty of ostentatiousness to share.... don't worry. But for now I'm just fine with the way things stand.

[wuapinmon]

I've got plenty of ostentatiousness to share.... don't worry. But for now I'm just fine with the way things stand.

You could be among the many noble and great ones.

[woot]

I think we should just all agree that everyone is trolling everyone else. As it is, the constant analysis of whether trolling is occurring, while often fun, gets a bit tedious.

Yes, SU is trolling, if by trolling we mean that he is presenting opinions that he knows will ruffle feathers. I do the same, as do most of us on here. It's called debate. If this never happened, this board would be boring and few of us would ever visit. It seems that ofttimes the troll accusations are thrown around in place of actual debate. The pages of this thread since SU's "joey" story are a good example. Art's post is good though.