Michael Moore is back at it

[BlueHair]

Because the latter two espouse a political philosophy that you disagree with.

Actually, my views are closer to the conservatives. It's their personalities I can't stand. They both shout people down instead of engaging in conversation. Maher lets his guests speak.

[JohnnyLingo]

Okay. So what was inaccurate? Remember, you are making the accusation, so the burden of proof is on you.

Moore shows himself filming the movie near the Saudi embassy in Washington, D.C.:

Moore as narrator: Even though we were nowhere near the White House, for some reason the Secret Service had shown up to ask us what we were doing standing across the street from the Saudi embassy….
Officer: That’s fine. Just wanted to get some information on what was going on.
Moore on camera: Yeah yeah yeah, I didn’t realize the Secret Service guards foreign embassies.
Officer: Uh, not usually, no sir.

But in fact:

Any tourist to Washington, DC, will see plenty of Secret Service Police guarding all of the other foreign embassies which request such protection. Other than guarding the White House and some federal buildings, it’s the largest use of personnel by the Secret Service’s Uniformed Division.
Debbie Schlussel, "FAKEN-heit 9-11: Michael Moore’s Latest Fiction," June 25, 2004.

According to the Secret Service website:

Uniformed Division officers provide protection for the White House Complex, the Vice-President's residence, the Main Treasury Building and Annex, and foreign diplomatic missions and embassies in the Washington, DC area.
So there is nothing strange about the Secret Service protecting the Saudi embassy in Washington—especially since al Qaeda attacks have taken place against Saudi Arabia. According to Article 22 of the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations, an international agreement which has been ratified by the United States, every host country (including the United States) is obliged to protect every embassy within its borders.

[Moore response: None.]

There's one. There are plenty more.

He is presenting the world through his own eyes and biases.

See, PAC? This is what people think of Moore. He's merely presenting the world as he sees it.

[Mormon Red Death]

I have found Roger & Me to be entertaining even though I didn't agree with the message. Bowling for Columbine cured me of ever wanting to watch one of his documentaries again. The problem that I have isn't with the agenda, every single documentary has an agenda. The problem that I have is the outright fiction and intellectual dishonest that is a problem in his films. Having an agenda is fine, lying to make your point in a documentary is not.

Bowling for columbine was crap. There was one part where he equated the NRA and the Klu Klux Klan with this little cartoon. Uh yeah sure Michael Moore

[JohnnyLingo]

Consider it a docudrama then.

Fine, let's do. The term "documentary film" already has a definition. If we want to create a whole new category of film, let's name it something different, so as to alleviate confusion.

[Mormon Red Death]

We've had at least three mentions of untruths in Moore's films with one person going so far as to call an untruth a "lie."

So what are the untruths? And especially, where is the "lie?"

Please see my post above.

[BlueHair]

There's one. There are plenty more.



See, PAC? This is what people think of Moore. He's merely presenting the world as he sees it.

You are funny. Moore said he didn't realize they guarded foreign embassies. He didn't state that they don't guard embassies. What is dishonest about that?

[PaloAltoCougar]

See, PAC? This is what people think of Moore. He's merely presenting the world as he sees it.

You've apparently made a great point here, but I'm unclear what that point is. I think Moore, like every other filmmaker, gives us a story as he/she sees it, literally and figuratively. Granted, that view may be skewed or simply wrong, but I think Moore is every bit as sincere in his presentation as (sorry for the repetition here) Limbaugh is in his.

[JohnnyLingo]

You are funny. Moore said he didn't realize they guarded foreign embassies. He didn't state that they don't guard embassies. What is dishonest about that?

Have you watched the film?

You've apparently made a great point here, but I'm unclear what that point is. I think Moore, like every other filmmaker, gives us a story as he/she sees it, literally and figuratively. Granted, that view may be skewed or simply wrong, but I think Moore is every bit as sincere in his presentation as (sorry for the repetition here) Limbaugh is in his.

Are you not reading the other posts in this thread? Moore intentionally misleads and lies to promote his agenda.

I'm not giving Limbaugh a free pass on any lies or intentionally misleading stuff he says, either.

[RobinFinderson]

Please see my post above.

Comparing the NRA to the KKK isn't a lie or an untruth. It is an opinion. Come on MRD, step up!

[JohnnyLingo]

Comparing the NRA to the KKK isn't a lie or an untruth. It is an opinion. Come on MRD, step up!

And if I compare abortion doctors to genocidal Nazis, you're on board with that, I assume. After all, it is an opinion.

[RobinFinderson]

And if I compare abortion doctors to genocidal Nazis, you're on board with that, I assume. After all, it is an opinion.

I wouldn't call that comparison a lie or an untruth, since that would make me look like an idiot.

[JohnnyLingo]

I wouldn't call that comparison a lie or an untruth, since that would make me look like an idiot.

Robin's patented technique for insulting without appearing to insult.

If not technically a lie, it is still misleading and a low road for someone to take.

[RobinFinderson]

Robin's patented technique for insulting without appearing to insult.

If not technically a lie, it is still misleading and a low road for someone to take.

It isn't misleading. It is an obvious opinion. If you think an obvious opinion is 'misleading,' either you are stupid, or you think most everyone else is stupid. Pick you poison.

Moore might take the low road, and some times he takes a nauseatingly high road. I don't always like his style myself, but so far I'm still waiting for the 'lie' and 'untruths.'

[JohnnyLingo]

It isn't misleading. It is an obvious opinion. If you think an obvious opinion is 'misleading,' either you are stupid, or you think most everyone else is stupid. Pick you poison.

Hey, stop infringing on SU's patented "Everyone agrees with me" debate tactic!

Moore might take the low road, and some times he takes a nauseatingly high road. I don't always like his style myself, but so far I'm still waiting for the 'lie' and 'untruths.'

Sigh. The first one isn't enough?

Moore does more than simply downplay the threat posed to the U.S. by the former Hussein regime in Iraq. He goes so far as to assert that Saddam “never threatened to attack the United States.”

If by “attack the United States” one interprets this claim to mean that Saddam never threatened to send troops to the United States, then Mr. Moore has a point.

But Saddam Hussein clearly sought to attack the United States within his own sphere of influence, even though he didn’t have the resources to attack U.S. soil from his side of the world:

On November 15, 1997, “the main propaganda organ for the Saddam regime, the newspaper Babel (which was run by Saddam Hussein’s son Uday), ordered: ‘American and British interests, embassies, and naval ships in the Arab region should be the targets of military operations and commando attacks by Arab political forces.’” (Dave Kopel, Independence Institute, “Fifty-nine Deceits In Fahrenheit 9/11,” http://i2i.org/ Accessed, 07/11/04)

In addition, “Iraqi forces fired, every day, for 10 years, on the aircraft that patrolled the no-fly zones and staved off further genocide in the north and south of the country,” (Source: New York Times, 12/1/03).

Saddam Hussein also provided safe haven to terrorists who killed Americans, like Abu Nidal; funded suicide bombers in Israel who certainly killed Americans; and ran the Iraqi police, which plotted to assassinate former President George Bush.

[Mormon Red Death]

Comparing the NRA to the KKK isn't a lie or an untruth. It is an opinion. Come on MRD, step up!

He said that the KKK turned into the NRA

Animated sequence equating NRA with KKK. In an animated history send-up, with the narrator talking rapidly, Bowling equates the NRA with the Klan, suggesting NRA was founded in 1871, "the same year that the Klan became an illegal terrorist organization." Bowling goes on to depict Klansmen becoming the NRA and an NRA character helping to light a burning cross.

This sequence is intended to create the impression either that NRA and the Klan were parallel groups or that when the Klan was outlawed its members formed the NRA.

Both impressions are not merely false, but directly opposed to the real facts.


Fact: The NRA was founded in 1871 -- by act of the New York Legislature, at request of former Union officers. The Klan was founded in 1866, and quickly became a terrorist organization. One might claim that while it was an organization and a terrorist one, it technically became an "illegal" such with passage of the federal Ku Klux Klan Act and Enforcement Act in 1871. These criminalized interference with civil rights, and empowered the President to use troops to suppress the Klan. (Although we'd have to acknowledge that murder, terror and arson were illegal long before that time -- the Klan hadn't been operating legally until 1871, it was operating illegally with the connivance of law enforcement.)


Fact: The Klan Act and Enforcement Act were signed into law by President Ulysess S. Grant. Grant used their provisions vigorously, suspending habeas corpus and deploying troops; under his leadership over 5,000 arrests were made and the Klan was dealt a serious (if all too short-lived) blow.

Fact: Grant's vigor in disrupting the Klan earned him unpopularity among many whites, but Frederick Douglass praised him, and an associate of Douglass wrote that African-Americans "will ever cherish a grateful remembrance of his name, fame and great services."

Fact: After Grant left the White House, the NRA elected him as its eighth president.

Fact: After Grant's term, the NRA elected General Philip Sheridan, who had removed the governors of Texas and Lousiana for failure to suppress the KKK.

Fact: The affinity of NRA for enemies of the Klan is hardly surprising. The NRA was founded by former Union officers, and eight of its first ten presidents were Union veterans.

Fact: During the 1950s and 1960s, groups of blacks organized as NRA chapters in order to obtain surplus military rifles to fight off Klansmen.