Breaking Bad

[UVACoug]

Like is a loose construct. You can love someone without liking him/her. You can love someone and not agree with their decisions or even like them. You're in it together whether you admit it or not. That's what makes them a protagonist.

So this is a "love the sinner, not the sin" type of thing? O.K. Doesn't that make love meaningless?

[wuapinmon]

They ain't exactly fleet of foot.

[falafel]

For the most part, the show has had great sets and locations. But two small things that really bug me.

1. Jesse's house: I know the original house was eventually sold, so they got some other place. Maybe its another house, but it looks like a set to me. And if they're on a set, couldn't they at least try to make it look like the original house? Or even a real living room? Its got that weird half step up to a hall way to nowhere.

2. Walt and Sklyar's front door. No way that is an exterior door. Each time they shut it, it rings like a cheap/hollow bedroom door. Just spend some money on a real exterior door!

/rant

[The_Douger]

When did this happen? Not saying it didn't, but can you flesh out this argument a bit?

* I would argue that he has remained the protagonist. A viable counter would be that Jesse takes the torch as the protagonist, but we haven't seen the show play out yet, so that remains to be seen. Virtually every character with a speaking role with one exception does bad, rotten things. Yet BB has never really held Hank out to be the protagonist-- and you especially don't feel that way when his character is juxtaposed with Jesse. I think there is a stark difference between people we like and people who are moral, and BB delights in flouting the traditional good guy/bad guy model. It makes everything interesting and adds complexity- much of which is superimposed by our own experiences and values.

Agreed.

I'll preface my comments by saying I am very naive with regards to drug culture and stuff like that. I grew up probably like many here did, in a white, middle class family and I chose not to get in to drugs or anything as a teenager. This show has helped me gain a much greater understanding of it. I think initially you sit there and go "Well, he's cooking a few pounds of meth per week in this cute little lab" and you're kind of hoping he can do it because he's so down on his luck, his whole life has been hard, and you go back and forth between knowing what is the right thing to do (not cook meth), and what he really should do. At the same time you just feel like he's a loser and you just think he'll do it a little bit so he can leave his family something, but then he kills that kid in the basement, and then they're dissolving bodies in acid, and you almost feel like you're there doing all this crap with him. And you can almost see how morally someone who might have been a good guy could get in way over their head in something like this.

So, I guess I liked him at first, but as he's continued to do things that are reprehensible, it's been easy to love the show for me because it's so well done, but at the same time I hope he gets what he has coming to him because he's ruined so many lives. I was kind of pulling for him initially, because as a dad you want your famly to be provided for and I feel strongly that way as well. Now, if I had inoperable lung cancer, I wouldn't start cooking meth, but I understand the theme of doing whatever it takes to make sure your family is taken care of.

It's just an interesting dynamic to me. I'm probably completely contradicting myself, but I just don't remember something that had such superb character development and such an intrigueing storyline, even if you disagree with the premise of what they're doing and what the show is about.

[Commando]

Doesn't that make love meaningless?

Nothing renders anything meaningless outside the realm of your own opinion. Meaning is something we assign something from an individual stance, so this is a question for yourself I guess, but I'll take a crack at it. First let's sync our definitions of love for a literary character to work from a common point of reference: I guess if you think loving someone in the sense of pulling for them, identifying with them and empathizing to one degree or another is meaningless, I would disagree. That is the very thing that creates value and meaning within a literary work.

[UVACoug]

Nothing renders anything meaningless outside the realm of your own opinion. Meaning is something we assign something from an individual stance, so this is a question for yourself I guess, but I'll take a crack at it. First let's sync our definitions of love for a literary character to work from a common point of reference: I guess if you think loving someone in the sense of pulling for them, identifying with them and empathizing to one degree or another is meaningless, I would disagree. That is the very thing that creates value and meaning within a literary work.

I don't empathize with, pull for, or identify with Walt in any way. Does that mean I must hate the show? Or am I just not aware of my true subconscious feelings for Walt?

[Commando]

I don't empathize with, pull for, or identify with Walt in any way. Does that mean I must hate the show? Or am I just not aware of my true subconscious feelings for Walt?

I take the time to come up with a thought out response to what I now realize is a throwaway, smart ass question and this is how you respond? Lesson learned.

[UVACoug]

I take the time to come up with a thought out response to what I now realize is a throwaway, smart ass question and this is how you respond? Lesson learned.

It's not a smart ass question. I am trying to figure out what the heck you are talking about. I think you are starting from a false premise ... that you cannot like a show unless you "love" the protagonist (meaning ... in your words ... that you empathize with, pull for, or identify with them). I don't buy your premise and am challenging you to support it. If that makes me a "smart ass", then so be it. I'm not sure what lesson you learned though.

[ERCougar]

lol. What a load of crap.

I (and Vince Gilligan no less) have noted that it is funny/odd how many people cheer for Walt in spite of his evil. .

Can we get a specific Gilligan quote to this effect? I've already said that I think this idea of Gilligan being shocked at our response to Walt is completely disingenuous, so I'm curious to see what he actually said.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Can we get a specific Gilligan quote to this effect? I've already said that I think this idea of Gilligan being shocked at our response to Walt is completely disingenuous, so I'm curious to see what he actually said.

It was in an interview I saw. I wish I could remember the exact context. But I suspect you would nitpick a word difference here or there and call me disingenuous anyway so I won't bother searching too much.

Here are a couple of interesting quotes from Gilligan that seem pertinent to the recent discussion here:

When was the turning point for you, meaning from when on did you start to dislike Walt? That is, if you do. — jzvbb

A: I respect Walt, and I find him very interesting. If I didn’t respect him or find him interesting, this would a much harder job than it is. Having said that, Walt is a pretty unpleasant individual, and capable of great unpleasantness. He became really interesting to me way back in the fourth episode of the first season, when instead of accepting his old friend Elliot and Gretchen’s offer of help for his cancer treatment, he instead put his family at risk. In that moment, he became very interesting to me in a way that he hadn’t before. But when he became actively unlikable? Gosh, that’s a harder moment to point out. Oddly enough, poisoning young Brock, as bad as that was, it made sense at least because he needed Jesse on his side — otherwise his whole family was going to perish. But now, in Season 5, I guess he does terrible things in order just to better his station in life and make himself more money, and that’s probably where I have to draw the line.

But the elephant in the room is whether or not Walt will truly get away with it, or finally pay for all the breaking bad that he's done. And *spoiler* Gilligan is pretty clear on this point. “Not at all, really,” he said. “I’m very cornball in my own view of the world. It just makes sense to me that bad people should get punished and good people should be rewarded. I know it doesn’t work like that in real life, but there’s always that yearning.”

[Non Sequitur]

I don't empathize with, pull for, or identify with Walt in any way. Does that mean I must hate the show? Or am I just not aware of my true subconscious feelings for Walt?

Walt is a bad guy, no doubt. When he went head-to-head with Tuco and Gus, who were you pulling for? Who did you empathize with? Breaking Bad is not a traditional morality play, where there is absolute right and wrong. It is played out in the gray area where morality is relative. That's what makes it interesting...life is not black and white. Most people are able to identify with that.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Another one:

A: It’s funny, I always pitched — and everyone has heard the line ad nauseum — that the show was going to take Mr. Chips and transform him into Scarface. So implicit within that statement was the idea that this character’s going to get very dark indeed. [Laughs] Scarface was a pretty dark character, and if you use Scarface as your template, you kinda gotta know where you’re heading. Having said that, I think in many ways Walter White is a darker human being than Scarface right now. So I guess the short answer to the question is that I thought I saw how dark Walt was going to get, and in those earlier days looking back on it now, I don’t think I truly did. I think how dark Walt has become has surprised me, and does continue to surprise me. As to whether or not he will continue to get darker still? It’s a real possibility, but the best thing to do is wait and see.

Darker than Scarface? Now that is dark.

[Non Sequitur]

It was in an interview I saw. I wish I could remember the exact context. But I suspect you would nitpick a word difference here or there and call me disingenuous anyway so I won't bother searching too much.

Here are a couple of interesting quotes from Gilligan that seem pertinent to the recent discussion here:

I've heard him express that sentiment a couple of times. I don't think I ever heard him use the word "shocked", more like surprised or amused.

[Jeff Lebowski]

I've heard him express that sentiment a couple of times. I don't think I ever heard him use the word "shocked", more like surprised or amused.

That is more how I remember it too, but he has done tons of interviews so who knows?

ER may be referring to this post by Grace:

http://www.cougarstadium.com/showthread.php?12085-Breaking-Bad&p=1003974&viewfull=1#post1003974

Gilligan says he's shocked and even at times angry by how many people still seem to be pulling for Walt. He says he doesn't get it at all and the guy is just completely evil. ...

[UVACoug]

Walt is a bad guy, no doubt. When he went head-to-head with Tuco and Gus, who were you pulling for? Who did you empathize with? Breaking Bad is not a traditional morality play, where there is absolute right and wrong. It is played out in the gray area where morality is relative. That's what makes it interesting...life is not black and white. Most people are able to identify with that.

I pulled for Walt against Tuco, but I was pulling for Gus against Walt. Of course Walt couldn't die (though I thought that would have been a fascinating twist), but I didn't want him to kill Gus. He didn't deserve to win that battle, in my opinion.

That kind of illustrates my point. I think the idea that there is a universal rule that the audience must pull for and identify with the protagonist is bullshit. Sometimes a story can be appealing in spite of its audience's lack of empathy for the protagonist. That is what makes Breaking Bad such an amazing show, in my opinion.

So when I ask whether I'm just unaware of my true subconscious feelings towards Walt, I am not trying to be a smart ass. I am looking for an explanation for how I can despise Walt as much as I do and still consider Breaking Bad one of the five best television series of all time. Am I just deluding myself?