Levin's new project

[clackamascoug]

Follow the money.

We all know the Church subsidises the education of BYU Students. What's the percent? 80% of tuition? The church does so because their actuarial tables tell them that if they do, "the windows of heaven shall open, and there will not be enough room to receive the future tithing of its graduates." If a non EE student is a bad investment in the future portfolio, we need to fill that spot with a future CE that will travel with the Football & Basketball teams. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is not the Corporation of the President. It's a business. Follow the money.

[Non Sequitur]

Follow the money.

We all know the Church subsidises the education of BYU Students. What's the percent? 80% of tuition? The church does so because their actuarial tables tell them that if they do, "the windows of heaven shall open, and there will not be enough room to receive the future tithing of its graduates." If a non EE student is a bad investment in the future portfolio, we need to fill that spot with a future CE that will travel with the Football & Basketball teams. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is not the Corporation of the President. It's a business. Follow the money.

That's pretty cynical. Do you also think the missionary program is nothing more than a world-wide, non-salaried workforce, receiving no commission and selling expensive insurance policies to people who can't file a claim until after they're dead? Don't be a hater.

[clackamascoug]

That's pretty cynical. Do you also think the missionary program is nothing more than a world-wide, non-salaried workforce, receiving no commission and selling expensive insurance policies to people who can't file a claim until after they're dead? Don't be a hater.

It must a holdover from our days at DT. And, I thought you were more cynical than me, besides, I'm a lover.

My main point, is that the Church is investing in it's youth via BYU, and they have a right to spend their money wisely.

Didn't I make that clear in my original?

[Jeff Lebowski]

Yeah, after I typed that, I realized I should have typed a smiley after accusing you of consorting with Carrie. That was a low blow.

I'm not sure that I find as persuasive as I used to the argument that, "well, these kids are taking up the slots of other, equally qualified applicants that would be grateful for what BYU provides." First, I think that we're talking about a very small number of students. Second, there are lots of reasons why I think some kids that are admitted probably should not be, and it has a lot to do with intellectual attributes (and not just their success in ginning up their GPA and ACT scores) or their lack thereof. BYU seems to accept far too many students that know how to get good grades and want an education in a safe environment but lack any real intellectual fire. I'd gladly go after those kids before I went after a few kids that have their vision on the road to Damascus and decide the JWs really got it going on.

I guess they could transfer if they go through a faith crisis early enough in their career but that's a pain in the butt and transfer agreements are always tricky if they want to go full heathen and transfer to the U. Some classes, most probably, would transfer but some wouldn't and they would be out that much time, effort, and money.

I think that letting those kids stick around and doubling their tuition to non-member rates would affect very few people but would generate a bit of goodwill (or at least undercut a lot of ill will) and show that BYU really is serious about encouraging these kids to be seriously invested in their own spiritual development, even if once in a blue moon it doesn't turn out as planned.

The Carrie Jenkins jab was a cruel insult. Well done!

I would be fine with a revamped policy as you suggested.

As for the selective admission problem you describe, this is a problem that is not unique to BYU. You many have seen this already, but this Yale prof argues that many of the kids at Ivy league schools get in by gaming the system, and don't know how to think independently.

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/118747/ivy-league-schools-are-overrated-send-your-kids-elsewhere

[Moliere]

Follow the money.

We all know the Church subsidises the education of BYU Students. What's the percent? 80% of tuition? The church does so because their actuarial tables tell them that if they do, "the windows of heaven shall open, and there will not be enough room to receive the future tithing of its graduates." If a non EE student is a bad investment in the future portfolio, we need to fill that spot with a future CE that will travel with the Football & Basketball teams. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is not the Corporation of the President. It's a business. Follow the money.

This might be the first Clack post that I got. Bravo.

[Jeff Lebowski]

I think students have every right to define their own BYU experience which may be different from the "full BYU experience". I don't think it's too much to require students to attend church now-and-then and I would expect that most BYU Bishops will continue to work with students who are labeled as "lesser active". But I question the logic of: students who do not engage in the "full BYU experience" are occupying slots of those who would be more willing to engage. It seems to me that is putting some type of Mormoness test on BYU students. Why not let students decide for themselves how much of the "full BYU experience" they wish to enggage in? As long as they adhere to basic LDS values. Does BYU want the best academic students or the "most Mormon" students?

Straw man alert. In most cases, a student has to be very inactive over a long period before problems arise.

[TripletDaddy]

Earlier in the thread someone made a reference to "withholding" a degree when someone has lost faith or left the Church. That seems like a totally different issue than the one being discussed. Is BYU actually withholding degrees or the transferring of credits if someone leaves the Church? That seems pretty egregious but also hard to believe.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Earlier in the thread someone made a reference to "withholding" a degree when someone has lost faith or left the Church. That seems like a totally different issue than the one being discussed. Is BYU actually withholding degrees or the transferring of credits if someone leaves the Church? That seems pretty egregious but also hard to believe.

I agree. Fortunately, I think it is quite rare. Remember the guy that developed and marketed the sexy missionary calendars? He got exed during his last semester and they would not grant him a degree. Dumb move by BYU but equally dumb move by student.

I don't think they ever refuse to transfer credits. I don't think that is even logistically possible.

[Paperback Writer]

Straw man alert. In most cases, a student has to be very inactive over a long period before problems arise.

I didn't mean to imply that BYU Bishop's go on a witch hunt when a student skips FHE - that makes a much better straw man. It's more to do with BYU's expectation that students embrace the "full BYU experience" and the implication that those who do not fully embrace, occupy a space of those who would gladly do so. And I do think this factors in somewhat with critical or independent thinking at BYU. BYU is, by design, a very homogeneous university. And when one challenges the prevailing group think or wants his or her own unique BYU experience, he or she is faced with: "If you dont' like it here at BYU or want to change or challenge something, go somewhere else". That doesn't foster critical or independent thought.

[TripletDaddy]

I agree. Fortunately, I think it is quite rare. Remember the guy that developed and marketed the sexy missionary calendars? He got exed during his last semester and they would not grant him a degree. Dumb move by BYU but equally dumb move by student.

I don't think they ever refuse to transfer credits. I don't think that is even logistically possible.

I do remember that. Even if that were a dumb move by the student, I would disagree with BYU's decision to withhold anyone's degree, even in that case. Whatever happened to that? if he didnt complete the coursework then I guess technically BYU isnt withholding it because the degree hasnt been completed anyway. If he completed and passed all coursework, I cant see the rationale for withholding the degree. I am guessing BYU isnt withholding degrees that have been completed.

[Jeff Lebowski]

I didn't mean to imply that BYU Bishop's go on a witch hunt when a student skips FHE - that makes a much better straw man. It's more to do with BYU's expectation that students embrace the "full BYU experience" and the implication that those who do not fully embrace, occupy a space of those who would gladly do so. And I do think this factors in somewhat with critical or independent thinking at BYU. BYU is, by design, a very homogeneous university. And when one challenges the prevailing group think or wants his or her own unique BYU experience, he or she is faced with: "If you dont' like it here at BYU or want to change or challenge something, go somewhere else". That doesn't foster critical or independent thought.

Look! Another straw man.

[Jeff Lebowski]

I do remember that. Even if that were a dumb move by the student, I would disagree with BYU's decision to withhold anyone's degree, even in that case. Whatever happened to that? if he didnt complete the coursework then I guess technically BYU isnt withholding it because the degree hasnt been completed anyway. If he completed and passed all coursework, I cant see the rationale for withholding the degree. I am guessing BYU isnt withholding degrees that have been completed.

IIRC, this guy was pretty much done. I agree, terrible form. Give him his degree and let it go.

[Donuthole]

I agree. Fortunately, I think it is quite rare. Remember the guy that developed and marketed the sexy missionary calendars? He got exed during his last semester and they would not grant him a degree. Dumb move by BYU but equally dumb move by student.

I don't think they ever refuse to transfer credits. I don't think that is even logistically possible.

I do remember that. Even if that were a dumb move by the student, I would disagree with BYU's decision to withhold anyone's degree, even in that case. Whatever happened to that? if he didnt complete the coursework then I guess technically BYU isnt withholding it because the degree hasnt been completed anyway. If he completed and passed all coursework, I cant see the rationale for withholding the degree. I am guessing BYU isnt withholding degrees that have been completed.

I believe BYU can and does refuse to transfer credits if the transferring student is not in current good standing with the Honor Code. I'm not saying it's right, but I'm under the impression that they can refuse to transfer transcripts until a student has rectified his/her position with the Honor Code office.

[Pelado]

I have a close friend from California who realized she never had a testimony and wasn't about to get one so she transferred to the U her junior year. She was in the accounting program. She just didn't feel like she could in good conscience keep attending BYU and take advantage of a Church subsidized education despite her Bishop encouraging her to stay and promising to work with her to keep her EE. I told her to fake it until she made it. BYU accounting>>>>>Utah accounting.

she probably didn't get admitted to the byu program

That was my first thought as well - junior year, needs an excuse for transferring to a different accounting program...

I'm not doubting that she had doubts. Those without doubts that didn't get into the accounting program just switched to marketing majors.

[Jeff Lebowski]

I believe BYU can and does refuse to transfer credits if the transferring student is not in current good standing with the Honor Code. I'm not saying it's right, but I'm under the impression that they can refuse to transfer transcripts until a student has rectified his/her position with the Honor Code office.

Hmm... Even exmo.org is calling that an urban legend.

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,856559,856625