Question for Attorneys

[Uncle Ted]

EXACTLY.

Tell him to become an engineer. You get to work all day solving problems that matter. You can graduate with zero debt. (I graduated with my masters with virtually no debt, and I didn't have any scholarships, beyond a one time $1000 one).

I did the same thing. I had a few scholarships, pell grants, and took out a few student loans. I paid off all my student loans off within the three months of being out of school.

Our daughters are on track of doing the same thing. They both have great on-campus jobs. The oldest gone a summer internship after her first year and made about $10K for school.

You can land a job with decent-to-good earning potential with a bachelors degree. There are excellent job prospects in Civil, Envronmental and Biomedical Engineering fields right now. In fact biomedical is exploding. BLS predicts 10 year Job growth for biomedical to be in the 72% range (7-12% is about agerage) Civil is projected at 24% and environmental at 31%.

http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos027.htm

Growth in Law is projected at 13%, or average.

I tell my kids that engineering is a good pre-professional degree. Our oldest, as I have mentioned, is/was thinking law and finishing up her chemE degree. Our second is following her dad's path in computer engineering but was thinking about medicine (Radiology). After her first year of compE she likes engineering so much she wants to do a grad degree in biomedical now. I think Obamacare and the years of grad school may have scared her out of being a doctor.

[Babs]

wuap: I just spent three (yes, THREE) years doing the law school admissions thing. I swear I could be a friggin pre-law advisor at this point. Here's what I learned:

It really is all LSAT/GPA. Period. I cannot emphasize this enough. Sure, it's nice if you've been in the military, or done a stint in the peace corps, or if you got your GED as a single mom while working nights at Kmart, but in the end if you don't have the numbers they simply don't care. Why? Because no matter what your story is, they can find somebody just like you who does. The number one mistake most students make is thinking that there's something about them that makes them just that much more marketable than the next guy.

There is one exception, namely the URM (under-represented minority). If your student is non-white (and preferably non-asian), then there is virtually no lower bound for acceptable numbers. This is because there just simply aren't enough minorities going into law. It's a supply and demand thing. IF your student *is* a URM, then just have him focus on getting the best LSAT he can, and make sure you read through his essays for him, and he should be fine.

I absolutely agree with Jacob re: minimizing debt, but that's a personal thing. Some people think it's a better bet to go to the highest ranking school you can get into. Probably depends a little on your priorities and career goals.

There's tons more he'll need to know, but that's enough to get him started. Bottom line is 1) figure out if you're a URM so you know what your expectations are; 2) keep your pants on while taking the LSAT; 3) don't fall into the trap of thinking that your "overcoming disadvantages" story is any more impressive than anyone else's.

btw, tell your student to get started on top-law-schools as early as he wants. He'll be able to learn everything he needs to know about the process and law school from other applicants and current law students.

[wuapinmon]

wuap: I just spent three (yes, THREE) years doing the law school admissions thing. I swear I could be a friggin pre-law advisor at this point. Here's what I learned:

It really is all LSAT/GPA. Period. I cannot emphasize this enough. Sure, it's nice if you've been in the military, or done a stint in the peace corps, or if you got your GED as a single mom while working nights at Kmart, but in the end if you don't have the numbers they simply don't care. Why? Because no matter what your story is, they can find somebody just like you who does. The number one mistake most students make is thinking that there's something about them that makes them just that much more marketable than the next guy.

There is one exception, namely the URM (under-represented minority). If your student is non-white (and preferably non-asian), then there is virtually no lower bound for acceptable numbers. This is because there just simply aren't enough minorities going into law. It's a supply and demand thing. IF your student *is* a URM, then just have him focus on getting the best LSAT he can, and make sure you read through his essays for him, and he should be fine.

I absolutely agree with Jacob re: minimizing debt, but that's a personal thing. Some people think it's a better bet to go to the highest ranking school you can get into. Probably depends a little on your priorities and career goals.

There's tons more he'll need to know, but that's enough to get him started. Bottom line is 1) figure out if you're a URM so you know what your expectations are; 2) keep your pants on while taking the LSAT; 3) don't fall into the trap of thinking that your "overcoming disadvantages" story is any more impressive than anyone else's.

btw, tell your student to get started on top-law-schools as early as he wants. He'll be able to learn everything he needs to know about the process and law school from other applicants and current law students.

He's most definitely an under-represented minority. I agree with minimizing debt. However, most humanities programs (like say a masters in Spanish) will pay him to go to school and teach for them. That would allow him to better his writing skills, improve his GPA, and prepare himself all around for the rigors of law school. I don't think he realizes yet how much studying, on your own, goes into the study of derechos. I also really don't feel that he's capable of expressing himself eloquently enough in his writing to be successful at a high-ranking law school.

[wuapinmon]

This kid would be absolutely miserable as an engineer. It's not in him to do that. And, pellegrino is right; there are no engineering degrees at my LIBERAL ARTS college.

This kid got into Duke, but stayed close to home to help his mom. No matter what he does, his charisma will make him successful. But, the law is what he wants to do. So, it's my job to help him have the greatest chance of success in doing that. I've had the "do you know how expensive it is" conversation. But, he is adamant and mature enough to realize that he's got his work cut out for him.

[Babs]

He's most definitely an under-represented minority. I agree with minimizing debt. However, most humanities programs (like say a masters in Spanish) will pay him to go to school and teach for them. That would allow him to better his writing skills, improve his GPA, and prepare himself all around for the rigors of law school. I don't think he realizes yet how much studying, on your own, goes into the study of derechos. I also really don't feel that he's capable of expressing himself eloquently enough in his writing to be successful at a high-ranking law school.

If he's a true URM, he only needs a score in the 160s to get into any school he wants, he'll hardly have to pay at all, and he may or may not even need to be "successful" to land a good job. Assuming he's sold on law, forget the masters. The LSAT should be his sole focus.

[wuapinmon]

If he's a true URM, he only needs a score in the 160s to get into any school he wants, he'll hardly have to pay at all, and he may or may not even need to be "successful" to land a good job. Assuming he's sold on law, forget the masters. The LSAT should be his sole focus.

I should've called this thread "Question for Law Students" as they're the ones who have provided solid answers in the thread and PMs.

[Babs]

I should've called this thread "Question for Law Students" as they're the ones who have provided solid answers in the thread and PMs.

yeah, I was going to say something to that effect. I didn't even bother with the thread until just now when I got bored with the board. Your student will have lots and lots of options if he plays his cards right. You should be excited for him.

[wuapinmon]

yeah, I was going to say something to that effect. I didn't even bother with the thread until just now when I got bored with the board. Your student will have lots and lots of options if he plays his cards right. You should be excited for him.

I really am. He's one of these kids that makes me feel like it's worth it. He's considering adding an extra semester to school and going to study in Buenos Aires for a semester so he can master Spanish. He's basically going to school for free now, so if they'll fund it, I might suggest it.

I'll definitely get him on the LSAT prep stuff.

[thesaint258]

He's most definitely an under-represented minority. I agree with minimizing debt. However, most humanities programs (like say a masters in Spanish) will pay him to go to school and teach for them. That would allow him to better his writing skills, improve his GPA, and prepare himself all around for the rigors of law school. I don't think he realizes yet how much studying, on your own, goes into the study of derechos. I also really don't feel that he's capable of expressing himself eloquently enough in his writing to be successful at a high-ranking law school.

I don't think that I'd worry so much about the writing. I was a pretty good writer in philosophy, and I had to relearn pretty much everything in law school. I don't think that academic writing is good preparation for legal writing at all, so I don't know how much getting a masters would help. If he can spell decently, he'll be ahead of a few lawyers I've dealt with before.

[wuapinmon]

I don't think that I'd worry so much about the writing. I was a pretty good writer in philosophy, and I had to relearn pretty much everything in law school. I don't think that academic writing is good preparation for legal writing at all, so I don't know how much getting a masters would help. If he can spell decently, he'll be ahead of a few lawyers I've dealt with before.

I think that people have a very skewed idea of what "academic writing" is. He needs to be able to reason out an argument in writing. He's not there yet at a high level. I just think that the kid needs some serious polishing before he tries to become a professional. Like, I don't think that the undergraduate experience is going to be enough in his case.

[thesaint258]

I think that people have a very skewed idea of what "academic writing" is. He needs to be able to reason out an argument in writing. He's not there yet at a high level. I just think that the kid needs some serious polishing before he tries to become a professional. Like, I don't think that the undergraduate experience is going to be enough in his case.

I think I have a pretty good idea of what it is. In any case, if he can't put an argument in writing, I'd suggest taking a logic class. It would help him see how arguments are structured, and it would help on the LSAT.

[cowboy]

I think that people have a very skewed idea of what "academic writing" is. He needs to be able to reason out an argument in writing. He's not there yet at a high level. I just think that the kid needs some serious polishing before he tries to become a professional. Like, I don't think that the undergraduate experience is going to be enough in his case.

How many attorneys and law students will have to tell you that a masters is a waste of time before you will believe them?

[Babs]

How many attorneys and law students will have to tell you that a masters is a waste of time before you will believe them?

actually, I did think of one thing. It sounds like wuap is saying (in so many words) that this is an ESL student. If his reading comprehension is weak, he's toast on the LSAT, so maybe a couple of years of graduate level reading would help. I certainly wouldn't put a lot of money into an interim degree, though.

[Pheidippides]

How many attorneys and law students will have to tell you that a masters is a waste of time before you will believe them?

At least one more. I went to law school with the idea of doing a joint masters degree until I realized it was a vain waste of time and money. Joint MBA, maybe.

[Babs]

At least one more. I went to law school with the idea of doing a joint masters degree until I realized it was a vain waste of time.

and so you decided against it because....?