Question for Attorneys

[UtahDan]

Please note my prior clarification! ENVIRONMENTAL! (At least the Dude pays attention!)

Here's a recent comment from the lad [sic] [sic] [sic]:

Missed that.

[Uncle Ted]

Immigration law is what I do pro bono. That should give you a sense of the financial wherewithal of at least a portion of the clientele. You don't see many pro bono operations in M&A or finance.

Why do we need immigration law in Texas? Isn't that an Arizona thing?

OT: Many of my engineering colleagues and I participate in Engineers without Borders. In fact, we are sending our oldest to Peru next summer to install toilets. Engineering students work cheap.

[beelzebabette]

I'm wondering. Is environmental law lucrative? I confess my only exposure to environmental lawyers is my friend's husband. She still has to work full-time as an RN to pay his student loans and to buy food.

[old_gregg]

Can anybody think of a reason a lawyer would need a masters? Doubtful. There's simply to point to it for the practice of law.

Finance, M&A work, tax law, etc. I am getting a MAcc before law school because it will allow me to be uniquely valuable in any of these options. To say that a lawyer could never use a highly specialized graduate degree seems a but uninformed and short sighted. I think an MBA would probably accomplish this as well.

I'm not sure a liberal arts oriented masters would be particularly relevant, but I think there are a lot of niches in law that can be filled more competently by people with more experience in a specific field. Personally, I think some kind of masters in EP would be a great primer for a career in environmental law.

[Babs]

Not to thread jack, but I keep thinking and reading that we are nearing a tipping point in legal education. There are just a million law schools out there right now charging a lot of money, turning out lots of lawyers who cannot find jobs. I keep wondering whether we are going to start seeing a dramatic drop off in enrollment and see a lot of these little schools fold. I also keep wondering whether these market forces are going to force tuitions back down. There really are out of all proportion at the moment.

I think it's another ten years out, at least. The propaganda being served by these law schools and the ABA is incredibly effective, especially when delivered to a bunch of inexperienced but optimistic 23-year-olds.

[wuapinmon]

This young man is from a URM, and I think that he'll do fine in whatever he wants to go into. There are regional considerations in the South that might not be on yall's radar in other places. A male African-American attorney who is fluent in Spanish isn't very common in the South. There is a successful AA attorney in town who is also a state politician who I have on MY radar as his #1 mentor.

[wuapinmon]

Finance, M&A work, tax law, etc. I am getting a MAcc before law school because it will allow me to be uniquely valuable in any of these options. To say that a lawyer could never use a highly specialized graduate degree seems a but uninformed and short sighted. I think an MBA would probably accomplish this as well.

I'm not sure a liberal arts oriented masters would be particularly relevant, but I think there are a lot of niches in law that can be filled more competently by people with more experience in a specific field. Personally, I think some kind of masters in EP would be a great primer for a career in environmental law.

Please note that I'm not steering my charge into a Spanish masters. That's not my place. I'm supposed to tell him all his options and how to find more information from people in those options to make a better-informed decision.

But (not directed at you, cam), I can never ever abide someone saying that lawyers don't really need an undergraduate education. There's a lot more going on getting an undergraduate education than just getting a diploma. If you can't see that, then you need to investigate a little better before we try and dialogue about the value of the undergraduate experience.

[Jacob]

Finance, M&A work, tax law, etc. I am getting a MAcc before law school because it will allow me to be uniquely valuable in any of these options. To say that a lawyer could never use a highly specialized graduate degree seems a but uninformed and short sighted. I think an MBA would probably accomplish this as well.

I'm not sure a liberal arts oriented masters would be particularly relevant, but I think there are a lot of niches in law that can be filled more competently by people with more experience in a specific field. Personally, I think some kind of masters in EP would be a great primer for a career in environmental law.

You would think so, wouldn't you? But as someone who's been through law school and practices tax law, I disagree. Sure, some of that stuff will come in handy. But not to the extent that 2 years of schooling would have been worth it. Of course, a Macc you can complete in a mere extra year, or maybe less. That's not a bad option as there's still time to decide not to go to law school.

I honestly think that about the only benefit of a masters for a lawyer is that it gives him a way to get out of practicing law.

[UtahDan]

I'm wondering. Is environmental law lucrative? I confess my only exposure to environmental lawyers is my friend's husband. She still has to work full-time as an RN to pay his student loans and to buy food.

It is when your clients are trying to bring natural resources to market and need your help to clear the numerous and significant regulatory hurdles for doing so. What made me laugh in law school was seeing the kids interested in environmental law who basically wanted to save the earth realize that their choices were (1) work for a public interest group and make 35K a year or (2) work for the polluters.

[Jacob]

Please note that I'm not steering my charge into a Spanish masters. That's not my place. I'm supposed to tell him all his options and how to find more information from people in those options to make a better-informed decision.

But (not directed at you, cam), I can never ever abide someone saying that lawyers don't really need an undergraduate education. There's a lot more going on getting an undergraduate education than just getting a diploma. If you can't see that, then you need to investigate a little better before we try and dialogue about the value of the undergraduate experience.

I'm sure the getting an undergraduate degree and a juris doctor and practicing law are not qualifications to dialogue about the value of the undergraduate experience.
I wonder what investigation I might make to be worthy of dialogue?

[UtahDan]

You would think so, wouldn't you? But as someone who's been through law school and practices tax law, I disagree. Sure, some of that stuff will come in handy. But not to the extent that 2 years of schooling would have been worth it. Of course, a Macc you can complete in a mere extra year, or maybe less. That's not a bad option as there's still time to decide not to go to law school.

I honestly think that about the only benefit of a masters for a lawyer is that it gives him a way to get out of practicing law.

I assume you have an LLM? That is infinitely more valuable than anything that happens pre-law school for someone in tax, no?

[old_gregg]

I honestly think that about the only benefit of a masters for a lawyer is that it gives him a way to get out of practicing law.

i think it's also important to consider those who go to law school planning to never practice law, and just want to have another shiny point on their resume as a consultant.

[beelzebabette]

It is when your clients are trying to bring natural resources to market and need your help to clear the numerous and significant regulatory hurdles for doing so. What made me laugh in law school was seeing the kids interested in environmental law who basically wanted to save the earth realize that their choices were (1) work for a public interest group and make 35K a year or (2) work for the polluters.

Ah, that explains why they live where they do. Thanks.

[All-American]

I think it's another ten years out, at least. The propaganda being served by these law schools and the ABA is incredibly effective, especially when delivered to a bunch of inexperienced but optimistic 23-year-olds.

I think you'll quickly see a push to figure out what to do with your degree. I went for the best school I could get into because I didn't know for sure where I wanted to practice, and I needed to keep doors open. On campus interviews are starting this next week; I'll let you know in a bit whether the $120,000 doorstop was worth it. Somebody who is content to practice law in Utah and certain that they don't want to do anything else, on the other hand, would probably be foolish to pass up a hefty scholarship in exchange for tuition at a top 15 school.

I would urge this kid to get some legal experience on his resume and to make connections with people in his field where he would like to practice. One of the best things I did when I started planning for law school was the internship with the state legislature. It was a great experience in and of itself, but it also got me an internship with the Utah State Attorney General's Office. I was right on the borderline for admission into my law school, so it could very well be that these two things made the difference. It certainly helped me land my current clerkship, besides giving me a little bit of an idea what it would be like to go into law.

Then again, I know people with sparkling resumes, terrific test scores, and solid grades from the very best schools who just can't find a place to land. One of the best ways to go, if it is at all possible, is what my friend in Salt Lake is doing. She speaks spanish and has been working with a public defender's office for two or three years now. She is working to get into a respectable law school, but has the luxury of knowing that all she needs is a JD from an accredited school to have a job with her current employer. Connections matter.

[Babs]

I think you'll quickly see a push to figure out what to do with your degree. I went for the best school I could get into because I didn't know for sure where I wanted to practice, and I needed to keep doors open. On campus interviews are starting this next week; I'll let you know in a bit whether the $120,000 doorstop was worth it. Somebody who is content to practice law in Utah and certain that they don't want to do anything else, on the other hand, would probably be foolish to pass up a hefty scholarship in exchange for tuition at a top 15 school.

yeah, but I'm talking about pre-law propaganda. You know what I'm talking about. These schools are content to let the kids think they're all going to come out starting at 80-100k per year, and that if they don't, they'll cover the loans via LRAP. That's just not reality, and it kills me that the schools are deliberately misleading kids this way.