Putting my best foot forward

[byu71]

I agree that the SE concept is absurd. I cast my final vote long ago with my feet. It was one of the issues with the Speakeasy that did not sit well with me.

I belong to a golf group. Often someone has a problem with how we do things. On occasion someone is so bugged they threaten to leave. When that doesn't get the response they wanted they then leave. Sometimes they even try to convince others to leave.

In this particular case, the golf group, the group has remained strong because while people respect someone's right to walk away, in the end the group stays in tact because the person leaving has little impact on the group as a whole, even if that person reminds the group on occasion they left.

[Rosebud]

Hence, my "confusion"-- which, I should note, has absolutely nothing to do with wondering whether or not you want in the SE or not. I'm familiar enough with the jilted lover syndrome to know it when I see it. My "confusion" has much more to do with a number of other questions.

You know what AA? This is about your best post on this subject ever. It’s cool if you don’t read that as sincerely stated. You don’t have much reason to, but you gave me a lot to think about. I’ll address your points of confusion directly, but first I’d like to offer an apology where it is due.

Once I’m done offering the apology, though, I’ll be totally confusing and I’ll take my apology back. It’s sort of a two-faced thing to do, so I just wanted to make sure that I state up front that I know I’m being a little duplicitous. I’m not trying to be insincere. It’s just that there are so many sides to this conflict that when it comes down to it, it’s pretty hard for me to focus on just one aspect of it.

Here’s the apology part:

First of all, it’s wrong for me not to take SE as seriously as you do. Actually, I can’t really even say that because I know that not all of you really take it seriously and that it is okay for me to be a little amused by the whole thing. Maybe the best thing to say is that it isn’t kind to fight against a group of mostly nice men who are just running their message board the way they want to. I have a personal agenda and it’s intellectually interesting for me to play tactically with the board, but that doesn’t make it right.

I also need to keep in mind that the SE is really important to a lot of you and that a lot of you have worked long and hard to try to clean things up. Nobody who has invested long, hard hours in something important to them wants it to be treated lightly by someone who doesn’t care as much as they do. For that I’m sorry.

Here’s the taking back the apology part:

Look, you guys. The SE is funny and interesting. It’s funny to me that you guys keep this top secret group that you only invite people you say you can trust into when we all know that this is an internet message board for crying out loud. From the outside, it’s absurd and it makes me laugh. I hate that this sounds condescending. Am I the only one who sees the humor in this? The interesting part to me is that the SE is this tightly-knit group of guys jealousy protecting a power source and running stings all over the board. Watching you operate is interesting in a perverse sort of way. This is the first chance I’ve ever had to observe the way men bully and taunt each other.

Over time I’ve gotten into the habit of watching the bullying take place and then, because of my “lover syndrome” trying to experiment with what I might be able to do to fix it from the outside. It’s been an interesting learning experiment to say the least. I have a lot of skills now that I didn’t have before. That doesn’t mean, though, that I’ve tried to hurt anyone or that I’ve done anything different than what a lot of people are doing here. Social interaction is often rather experimental.

But here’s the biggest part of my non-apology: it’s dishonest to convince yourself that me running a social experiment is any different than the secret elections and coordinated stings that go on here all the time. This is a big part of what CUF culture IS. Yes, I broke some unwritten rules, but I didn’t start THIS culture. I learned it from you. It fits right in. I came here sincere and you showed me the ropes. I think we can all agree that it kind of sucks to be on the receiving end of someone else’s plot. It hurts and pisses you off. Moreover, I did it out in public where you could all see me, and I took the heat personally instead of putting it onto someone else.


Addressing AA’s points of confusion:

For starters, one wonders how you seem to have all the fixes for a system about which you know so little. The SE evolved from an antecedent which featured several of the "reforms" for which you advocate. Those features were abandoned because they didn't work. Experience has shown that they cause more trouble, not less.

I’m not sure exactly what you’re referring to because you’re not being specific. I’m guessing this has something to do with my suggestion that there be some sort of system of accountability inside the SE. I’d have to argue that life-time terms cause more trouble than about anything on CUF. I don’t want to get into a discussion about term limits, though. We’ve all heard that one before. It’s pretty straightforward. I’m just not one who’s convinced that they’re bad for anyone except the people who like to wreak havoc for fun. I’m also not convinced that there isn’t an easy way to implement them. However, it’s pretty obvious that if those who are against term limits are the voters there’s not much of a chance of them getting voted into place. This is pretty obvious to everyone as we’re all familiar with the USA. I also have a hard time believing that there isn’t a way to make this pretty painless for everyone except the people who would be voted out. IOW, not biting.

Then there's the matter of what sort of fixes you might offer for a system that just isn't "broken." Nearly every major SE/Crypt spat, dating back to its origins, has centered on one particularly volatile and polarizing character (like him, love him, or hate him). In a week or so, once the waters have calmed again, the powers that be will likely look this incident and realize that even if the rules could stand for a fairly minor tweak or two, the problems came about not because the rules were inadequate, but because they weren't followed. They may have come to that realization already.

I don’t have enough information to understand all of this. I’m guessing that the different members of the EC probably each have their handle on what is going on. I don’t think this is rocket science.

Which brings us to point three: why you think that breaking rules is the way to make things better.

Now this is interesting. I’m a rule breaker at heart, AA. I obey the written laws but break the social rules. Look at me. I come to a board full of Mormon men and start making posts about Heavenly Mother. I didn’t get kicked off of CUF for my inappropriate social behavior because luckily CUF protects freedom of speech. My posts may have made some people uncomfortable, but I was tolerated because that’s what CUF does. I think we need to be clear that in this case we’re not talking about formal written rules like the ones posted in town hall or the ones at Rick’s College. We’re talking about social rules. I’m a pretty independent person and I’m not really bugged by stepping out of line socially. It’s just that this is the first time you’ve seen me make a big, purposeful step against CUF culture. It really is a social activist type behavior and it drives some people crazy.

This isn't Ricks college, where we love having as many rules as possible so we can have more opportunities to receive the blessings of obedience. We're already as minimalist when it comes to rules as we know how to get, and the rules that we tolerate are little more than common-sense expressions of mutual respect and cooperation.

I’m not a fan of having any more written rules than are necessary, either, ‘cause that makes for fewer rules for me to obey. Like you said, though, I do have “lover syndrome” and I still think that as a minimum people on the outside need to be informed of the things that affect them. But we’ve been through this and still nothing appears in town hall.

Open defiance thereof isn't so much a way of introducing change as it is a show of contempt for this little society and its members. You're not the first person to try to demonstrate the value of the society by breaking its rules. It hasn't worked yet.

Yeah, it’s not a very popular thing to do. That’s why not many people do it. I’m not sure why you think that it has never worked, though. I’ve watched the culture evolve a lot since I got here. Usually it happens when someone introduces a new behavior that results in discussion and a new, unwritten social rule. I’d definitely agree that no one has broken the rules like this before. Can you imagine a man doing this? He’d be castrated.

[tooblue]

I belong to a golf group. Often someone has a problem with how we do things. On occasion someone is so bugged they threaten to leave. When that doesn't get the response they wanted they then leave. Sometimes they even try to convince others to leave.

In this particular case, the golf group, the group has remained strong because while people respect someone's right to walk away, in the end the group stays in tact because the person leaving has little impact on the group as a whole, even if that person reminds the group on occasion they left.

You forgot to include the next sentence from my post you quoted: I'm not advocating others do the same. My only opinion is the same as it pretty much always was -- there's no point to the Speakeasy. Why does it exist? It's not like it's a golf group or something!

I have no agenda 71 except to point out to a couple of tortured souls that there is an alternative. Also, though I don't think you mean to, you sound like Mike Waters after we all left his board. We don't want that so I will stop reminding you.

[All-American]

I’d definitely agree that no one has broken the rules like this before. Can you imagine a man doing this? He’d be castrated.

I can indeed imagine a man doing this. In fact, I REMEMBER a man doing this. You're not blazing any trails here-- the path you walk is well-trodden.

[byu71]

You forgot to include the next sentence from my post you quoted: I'm not advocating others do the same. My only opinion is the same as it pretty much always was -- there's no point to the Speakeasy. Why does it exist? It's not like it's a golf group or something!

I have no agenda 71 except to point out to a couple of tortured souls that there is an alternative. Also, though I don't think you mean to, you sound like Mike Waters after we all left his board. We don't want that so I will stop reminding you.

There is no point to it for you. I respect that and have no need to convince you as to why it should for you. However, hopefully you will agree because there is no point for you, that doesn't mean that it has no point for anyone.

There are a lot of people who visit this site. There are some things I like to comment on that I don't care to have out in the general domain. Not earth shattering things, but just the same, that is how I feel.

I appreciate the contributions you and others make who are not enthralled by the SE, but I don't understand what appears to be the need to change something one is not enthralled with. If it affects your life, yea I would understand, but it doesn't or in my opinion shouldn't.

AS far as Waters is concerned, I was gone long before others left. I don't think anyone noticed or cared. I managed to live with it.

The only real hurt I suffered in years on the boards was when I left CB. I thought I was a critical part of that boards popularity and success. I found even there they continued to survive and prosper without me.

[thesaint258]

I found even there they continued to survive and prosper without me.

That depends on what your definition of "prosper" is. IMO, it's gone downhill there. The reason I like CUF so much is because most of the best posters are here, and the content isn't so tightly controlled.

[Babs]

I have no agenda 71 except to point out to a couple of tortured souls that there is an alternative. Also, though I don't think you mean to, you sound like Mike Waters after we all left his board. We don't want that so I will stop reminding you.

The thing of it is, it's the ones among us that insist that they don't care and that they don't have any vested interest that consistently wax didactic and strident, and spend hours posting essay after essay on the topic. The posting records speak for themselves. It's all rather reminiscent of Paul Simon sanctimony: Hear my words that I might teach you.

Come to think of it, the sound of silence seems more appealing all the time...

[byu71]

This is the first chance I’ve ever had to observe the way men bully and taunt each other.

My response:

YOu must have led a very sheltered life. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but all of my female relatives have observed such bullying and tuanting. They have even expressed their seeing it as silly. However, none of them have threatened divorce over it.


If anyone can get all of the space below eliminated, thanks. I hate computer technology.





















































me running a social experiment is any different than the secret elections and coordinated stings that go on here all the time.

Is there any problem with someone or someone's not being interested in being part of a social experiment. I respect the fact you want to stick to your principles. However, your concept that rules don't apply to you for whatever reason is not appealing in a group setting.

I will go back to my golf group because it is my point of reference. If the group says a rule is no one bumps the ball, but a couple of people you know won't accept that rule, what would be your solution. Mine was was if they were ever caught doing so, they were kicked out of the group.

[tooblue]

There is no point to it for you. I respect that and have no need to convince you as to why it should for you. However, hopefully you will agree because there is no point for you, that doesn't mean that it has no point for anyone.

It's obvious it means something to some members. At one time it meant something to me also. However, the only way I can explain my thoughts is to share a portion of the request I sent to the committee when I asked to be removed:

I would like to be removed from the Speakeasy. I obviously make people uncomfortable and certainly don’t want to be viewed as a bear someone should avoid poking ...

This isn’t an appeal for attention or we like you tooblue blah blah or I'm taking my ball and going home. I really think it’s the best thing for the community and myself. Seriously, the forum could use some pruning. And no, I am not going to get more congenial. There’s too much history to be ignored. I harbor no ill will towards anyone, I don’t think this is an apostate site or bad place, I just think I should move on.

There are a lot of people who visit this site. There are some things I like to comment on that I don't care to have out in the general domain. Not earth shattering things, but just the same, that is how I feel.

To a certain degree that's the only thing I miss about the speakeasy. However, after information I posted in the speakeasy was repeatedly used in arguments against me in the public forums I came to the realization that nothing posted there was truly private. It's not. People can't resist breaking the rules of speakeasy when it suits them. As a result I figured that if I'm going to share something on a message board I may as well share in the public forums. And so I have. If I get burned by it I have no one to blame but me.

I appreciate the contributions you and others make who are not enthralled by the SE, but I don't understand what appears to be the need to change something one is not enthralled with. If it affects your life, yea I would understand, but it doesn't or in my opinion shouldn't.

Unfortunately it is affecting certain posters life's to a degree. That's very sad and the speakeasy is to blame.

AS far as Waters is concerned, I was gone long before others left. I don't think anyone noticed or cared. I managed to live with it.

I noticed and missed your posts.

The only real hurt I suffered in years on the boards was when I left CB. I thought I was a critical part of that boards popularity and success. I found even there they continued to survive and prosper without me.

It's ok to flatter yourself -- in my estimation you were correct in your assessment that you were a critical part of that boards popularity. But that board is massive, quick and a has a different kind of staying power.

[Babs]

Unfortunately it is affecting certain posters life's to a degree. That's very sad and the speakeasy is to blame.

baloney. Defamation is independent of its vehicle. The public side of the board has been used to assassinate character. It's happened with PMs, too. Individuals were irrevocably affected. Perhaps we should just save time and dispense with all of CUF?

I'm no fan of the speakeasy mechanism, but with nonsensical arguments like this, the champions of her reform are hardly furthering the cause.

[byu71]

It's ok to flatter yourself -- in my estimation you were correct in your assessment that you were a critical part of that boards popularity. But that board is massive, quick and a has a different kind of staying power.

If I have ever said something bad about you or disagreed with you, I take it back.

[tooblue]

The thing of it is, it's the ones among us that insist that they don't care and that they don't have any vested interest that consistently wax didactic and strident, and spend hours posting essay after essay on the topic. The posting records speak for themselves. It's all rather reminiscent of Paul Simon sanctimony: Hear my words that I might teach you.

Come to think of it, the sound of silence seems more appealing all the time...

I don't think you are speaking directly to me but I could be wrong. Regardless this is my theme song:

[YOUTUBE]hitMpM-P-Bs[/YOUTUBE]

[tooblue]

baloney. Defamation is independent of its vehicle. The public side of the board has been used to assassinate character. It's happened with PMs, too. Individuals were irrevocably affected. Perhaps we should just save time and dispense with all of CUF?

I'm no fan of the speakeasy mechanism, but with nonsensical arguments like this, the champions of her reform are hardly furthering the cause.

Baloney is right. In this instance the speakeasy is to blame.

[Jarid in Cedar]

Baloney is right. In this instance the speakeasy is to blame.

To blame for what?



*this thread is absolutely hilarious BTW

[Pheidippides]

I don't think I'm reaching too far in saying that there hasn't been this much ridiculous hyperbole about a cause since William Jennings Bryan started bearing his cross of gold.

Of the injustices of the world, I rank the stuff in here slightly below the fact that it's very difficult to get a commercially mass produced sandwich without mayo unless I ask, and slightly above the the fact that one of my ears is slightly higher than the other.

Like JIC, I do appreciate the humor value.