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I come not to praise Caesar, but to bury him.

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  • I come not to praise Caesar, but to bury him.

    Aristotle defined virtue for us; he said it means living a balanced life, and striving for excellence in all things. He emphasized the little things speak volumes, and that virtue does not come naturally but requires constant practice and self-examination. Yet there are no easy answers on the path to virtue. So, much as I like to wax pious at a group of Mormons, I'm just going to raise some questions here. (Aristotle's advice was above all practical because as I've learned, partly from hard experience, bad karma is a bitch.)

    Wither friendship? I'm wondering if this is the kind of thing friends do to friends. I have it from the horse's mouth that Waters has regarded you all as friends. I'm looking for some real guidance here; I've expressed my personal skepticism of the possibility of friendship unfettered by quid pro quo. I thought CG was an interesting experiment in that respect.

    Treachery? Why the secrecy? I'm honestly surprised that Waters wasn't told this was in the offing before it happened. Secrecy necessarily connotes an element of deceit, it seems to me. It's a deceit that is sometimes propagated in the interest of virtue, and sometimes a practical necessity. On the other hand, it can be a marker for knowledge that an act will hurt. In any event, this seems more like the kind of thing Sun Microsystems does to Microsoft not that happens among real friends. The intent seems to be to gut CG. Cuff indeed.

    Punishment fit the crime? Waters like all of us has his imperfections. But I wonder if his biggest sin at CG isn't the power of his controversial ideas. There's a tragicomic scene in "the Trial and Death of Socrates" where Socrates expresses bewilderment that he went place to place helping the educated and professional classes reexamine belief in things they had always taken for granted by teaching them to ask penetrating questions, and he lost all his friends.

    Farrah's offense? What did Farrah do to offend you all? I know she was invested in CG and assume she is hurt. I found her to be possibly the classiest, most intelligent, and generous poster.

    Wither the humor? My first supervising attorney, brilliant and Harvard educated, taught me an important lesson for coping with a hard and pitiless profession--lack of a sense of humor is an irredeemable quality. I wonder if the conspirators are taking themselves and this board business a tad too seriously. Ironically, I've heard this was done for 3D, but I think if he had been consulted he would have opposed it. If it was done for 3D, maybe Waters won. Eh, 3D?

    Infringement? Mike CREATED something that was valuable to many people; that gave them pleasure. A web site somewhere gives CG a market value (I bet the stock price was way down at the bell yesterday). This board seems to have very much the look and feel of CG. There seems to be an effort to appropriate the goodwill that Mike created, that emanated from him. I'm not saying laws were broken. Maybe they were but that's not my point. I'm wondering what's virtuous or not here. The conspirators' statement that this is as well "Mike's board" is a telling admission, maybe.

    Know thyself? In my opinion, CG's goodwill has emanated from Mike's intellect, creativity, and sense of humor, regardless of how upset some got with him. I wonder if this board can be as interesting a place as CG was with Mike. I kind of doubt it. Time will tell.

    I'm just askng.
    When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.

    --Jonathan Swift

  • #2
    Its simple SU. We wanted to have the community without Mike in control of it. That doesn't mean we don't want him to be a part of it though of course that is up to him. Lets not be melodramatic. Mike was the cause of all this and he is a big boy and take the kinds of licks he has dished out. I like Mike and have told him so, but it is nice to have a collective in control rather than just him. I feel the same way about you and many others.

    For me the essence of CG was always the Religion forum. As you have said, that was the primary asset so to speak. That is because of the community that participates there including a few dozen different people. If CG as about the cult of Mike's personality to you then I guess your comments make more sense, but that is never what it was for most of us. I'm not even sure how all this will unfold, I don't expect CG is going anywhere and I don't expect I will stop posting there.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by SeattleUte View Post
      This board seems to have very much the look and feel of CG.
      It should be pointed out that the look and feel of this site is simply the default look and feel of vBulletin, the forum software used by both CG and this site. This site looks like CG because the look of CG was never customized.

      Tim
      Visca Catalunya Lliure

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Tim View Post
        It should be pointed out that the look and feel of this site is simply the default look and feel of vBulletin, the forum software used by both CG and this site. This site looks like CG because the look of CG was never customized.

        Tim
        You're talking about the empty vessel. It's like saying one red wine is the same as another because the glass bottles all look the same absent the labels and the contents. Sure vBulletin provides the template. Waters' imagination and risk taking created the culture that is sought to be duplicated here, clear down to analogous categories in the same places. I see vBilletin all the time, but the look and feel is different everywhere from Cuff and CG.
        When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.

        --Jonathan Swift

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        • #5
          Originally posted by SeattleUte View Post
          You're talking about the empty vessel. It's like saying one red wine is the same as another because the glass bottles all look the same absent the labels and the contents. Sure vBulletin provides the template. Waters' imagination and risk taking created the culture that is sought to be duplicated here, clear down to analogous categories in the same places. I see vBilletin all the time, but the look and feel is different everywhere from Cuff and CG.
          Well maybe Waters created something worth holding on too but needed a little tweaking. He wasnt willing to make the changes and it looks like a few others were.
          *Banned*

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by UtahDan View Post
            Its simple SU. We wanted to have the community without Mike in control of it. That doesn't mean we don't want him to be a part of it though of course that is up to him. Lets not be melodramatic. Mike was the cause of all this and he is a big boy and take the kinds of licks he has dished out. I like Mike and have told him so, but it is nice to have a collective in control rather than just him. I feel the same way about you and many others.

            For me the essence of CG was always the Religion forum. As you have said, that was the primary asset so to speak. That is because of the community that participates there including a few dozen different people. If CG as about the cult of Mike's personality to you then I guess your comments make more sense, but that is never what it was for most of us. I'm not even sure how all this will unfold, I don't expect CG is going anywhere and I don't expect I will stop posting there.

            You wanted a board absent Mike's "control" but CG wasn't about Mike's "cult of personality"? How did he control it? Among people's grievances is that he mysteriously vanished for a number of days. In fact, he exercised no actual mechanical control. He even put Lebowski in charge of crypt admissions. There was no control except for the gag of expelling 3D for 12 hours. He even finally expelled exUte only after a democratic vote and against his personal choice.

            All Waters did is get into your all's head, but CG wasn't about his cult of personality. Go back and search on CG and you'll find Lebowski, not so long ago, after Mike had been gone on a scouting trip for a week, saying sure is a good thing Mike is gone because he's getting so much work done. But it wasn't about Mike's "cult of personality."

            And oh, I'm being melodramatic, but you're not. What was this declaration of indepenence in CG chit chat with everyone's John Henry if not melodramatic?
            When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.

            --Jonathan Swift

            Comment


            • #7
              SU, a community should be democratic, don't you think?

              Mike wants to do something interesting and creative with CG. He doesn't think his new vision could work in a democratic climate. Can you fault people for wanting to hold onto the old while Mike retools the shop?

              If CG 2.0 offers something fun and unique that can't be had here, every person here (except me) will support Mike's effort.

              Maybe Mike will come participate here. That would be very cool of him. Farrah too.
              Last edited by RobinFinderson; 11-16-2008, 02:30 AM.

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              • #8
                Seattle, I'm not on the inside so I can't say for sure, but didn't Mike make it pretty obvious the last few days that he was on a mission to run people off and didn't care who?

                Comment


                • #9
                  SU, you know I love you and appreciate your willingness to try new positions, wear leather, etc....but you are not going to accomplish much with this sort of posting.

                  A few thoughts:

                  1. I just used the Shakespeare reference in regards to mikewaters last week, so stop being a hack
                  2. You also hacked 2001: A Space Odyssey with your wine/empty vessel metaphor, although my guess was that it was unintentional
                  3. Stop dragging me into this. You keep trying to make this, in part, about me when it appears to be the consensus decision of a large group of people over a period of time.
                  4. I agree with all the positives you have listed re: mikewaters. I cannot speak for everyone, but I would guess that most here agree with you about all the positives. I think everyone here wants him and Archibald to post. However, until you can clearly articulate the negatives, you are not being objective. And everyone knows that you are not at your best when you are posting with a biased agenda.

                  I chalk all of this up to one thing....the root of most failed relationships....poor communication.
                  Fitter. Happier. More Productive.

                  sigpic

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                  • #10
                    What the hell is this "crypt" thing I keep hearing about?
                    I'm like LeBron James.
                    -mpfunk

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by TripletDaddy View Post
                      I chalk all of this up to one thing....the root of most failed relationships....poor communication.
                      You have goaded me into disclosing my theory. I blame Proposition 8, which means the root cause is you know what. I'm glad the LDS Church is such a love inspiring, unifying element in people's lives.
                      When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.

                      --Jonathan Swift

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by SeattleUte View Post
                        You have goaded me into disclosing my theory. I blame Proposition 8, which means the root cause is you know what. I'm glad the LDS Church is such a love inspiring, unifying element in people's lives.

                        I am completely floored that you would believe the Church was at fault here. I know what a difficult realization that must have been for you.

                        This could be a neat parlor game. Link any bad thing back to the LDS Church. For example, "How was the LDS Church to blame for the Dreyfull affair?" I'm sure you could come up with something.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Clark Addison View Post
                          I am completely floored that you would believe the Church was at fault here. I know what a difficult realization that must have been for you.

                          This could be a neat parlor game. Link any bad thing back to the LDS Church. For example, "How was the LDS Church to blame for the Dreyfull affair?" I'm sure you could come up with something.
                          I don't blame much on the LDS church if you consider cause and effect in the overall scheme of things. For example, I don't blame the failure of Wamu on LDS so far as I know. But since this and CG are populated by mostly LDS and dominated by their religion forums (so sayeth UtahDan), I don't need to make much of a leap to blame the LDS Church for the CG shakeup.
                          When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.

                          --Jonathan Swift

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by SeattleUte View Post
                            I don't blame much on the LDS church if you consider cause and effect in the overall scheme of things. For example, I don't blame the failure of Wamu on LDS so far as I know. But since this and CG are populated by mostly LDS and dominated by their religion forums (so sayeth UtahDan), I don't need to make much of a leap to blame the LDS Church for the CG shakeup.
                            You lost me. Help me understand how the LDS church caused the breakup of CG?

                            On second thought, never mind.
                            "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
                            "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
                            "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by SeattleUte View Post
                              I don't blame much on the LDS church if you consider cause and effect in the overall scheme of things. For example, I don't blame the failure of Wamu on LDS so far as I know. But since this and CG are populated by mostly LDS and dominated by their religion forums (so sayeth UtahDan), I don't need to make much of a leap to blame the LDS Church for the CG shakeup.

                              If you are going to blame the LDS Church for the breakup of CG, why don't you also blame blacks and latinos?
                              Fitter. Happier. More Productive.

                              sigpic

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