If you were Bronco and were offered the Colorado job

[Cougarmandias]

Somehow we need to get our members to understand that forcing obedience to gospel principles by applying a system of reporting sins of other students to a group of bureaucrats and then having those bureaucrats assign a secular punishment (loss of scholarship, etc.) to that sin is not at all consistent with the gospel of Jesus Christ and is not productive in instilling healthy beliefs and values in students at a vulnerable stage in life. The current institute system works just fine.

Ideology is grand, but it keeps getting upset on the rock of experience. The current institute experience is feeble.

[Scratch]

Ding ding ding ding!

Actually I personally don't like the idea of BYU being exclusively for the kids with good grades and test scores, or the idea of some kind of lottery that excludes kids with good grades and test scores. My feeling is that the church just needs to bite the bullet and pay to dramatically expand BYU or Ricks or both. There are ways to do that and still maintain the 'elite' drive (for instance, have a separate college within the university like Cornell does).

The thing is, if the church succeeds at expanding the missionary program in a big way with the new age limits, which is looking possible, then having more church schools, more slots at church schools, is a natural complement, and ultimately that's probably more important than if BYU is grudgingly admitted as full of smart people even though its not a 'real' academic institution. The problem is that the institutes at most schools aren't huge enough and active enough and vibrant enough to really be full substitutes.

Depending on how you run the numbers, one alternative might be to work out some kind of arrangement with already-existing institutions where they grant some credits for institute classes and cooperate with the church in setting up Honor-Code like arrangements/approved housing/religious study requirements/permission to go on missions without losing admission, for a group of students who in turn receive scholarship monies from the Church.

The easiest way to do this would be to have the church either sell off its colleges or stop subsidizing colleges, and then take the enormous piles of money it has been throwing at tuition and use it to subsidize every LDS kid going to college anywhere as long as that kid holds a temple recommend. This would strengthen institutes and lend credence to the party line that the church doesn't doesn't actually want all college students to go to BYU (which is the perception held by many and which feeds into the BYU elitism that is ridiculously rampant in many parts of the church).

[Eddie]

The easiest way to do this would be to have the church either sell off its colleges or stop subsidizing colleges, and the take the enormous piles of money it has been throwing at tuition and use it to subsidize every LDS kid going to college anywhere as long as that kid holds a temple recommend. This would strengthen institutes and lend credence to the party line that the church doesn't doesn't actually want all college students to go to BYU (which is the perception held by many and which feeds into the BYU elitism that is ridiculously rampant in many parts of the church).

Do you really believe this bolded part is true? You think people believe that the LDS church wants all college students to go to BYU?

Are there areas where everyone who applies to BYU gets in? If not, I would think the myth that the church "wants" everyone there would die rather quickly as soon as people who qualify are not accepted.

I think there are kids who want to experience not being different from everyone else. Kids who have lived in areas with few LDS folks. And I think BYU is a pretty good school. I highly doubt ANYONE is applying to attend because they think the LDS church wants them to. Or I should say it would surprise me to learn this. It would surprise me a great deal.

[Scratch]

Do you really believe this bolded part is true? You think people believe that the LDS church wants all college students to go to BYU?

Are there areas where everyone who applies to BYU gets in? If not, I would think the myth that the church "wants" everyone there would die rather quickly as soon as people who qualify are not accepted.

I think there are kids who want to experience not being different from everyone else. Kids who have lived in areas with few LDS folks. And I think BYU is a pretty good school. I highly doubt ANYONE is applying to attend because they think the LDS church wants them to. Or I should say it would surprise me to learn this. It would surprise me a great deal.

I probably could have phrased it differently. I don't think it is a commonly held belief that the church thinks every LDS college student should go to a church-owned school.

That said, I have come across a significant number of people who have told me that everyone who can get into BYU should go to BYU, and that "the church" would agree with this position. I know there have been discussions on cougarboard on this topic; I recall a drawn out discussion with some dude over there who told me that if you could get into BYU that you should go to BYU, and that the church wanted you to. I think he was an adjunct at Stanford or something like that (EV94-something, I think).

I also had multiple people tell me that it was my duty to go to BYU, both for undergrad and grad school, and I know a grad school buddy of mine from Garden Grove had the same experience.

[Eddie]

I probably could have phrased it differently. I don't think it is a commonly held belief that the church thinks every LDS college student should go to a church-owned school.

That said, I have come across a significant number of people who have told me that everyone who can get into BYU should go to BYU, and that "the church" would agree with this position. I know there have been discussions on cougarboard on this topic; I recall a drawn out discussion with some dude over there who told me that if you could get into BYU that you should go to BYU, and that the church wanted you to. I think he was an adjunct at Stanford or something like that.

I also had multiple people tell me that it was my duty to go to BYU, both for undergrad and grad school, and I know a grad school buddy of mine from Garden Grove had the same experience.

I've been living in Utah for the past 30+ years. And your comment is the very first time I've ever heard of this. Crazy.

[jay santos]

The easiest way to do this would be to have the church either sell off its colleges or stop subsidizing colleges, and the take the enormous piles of money it has been throwing at tuition and use it to subsidize every LDS kid going to college anywhere as long as that kid holds a temple recommend. This would strengthen institutes and lend credence to the party line that the church doesn't doesn't actually want all college students to go to BYU (which is the perception held by many and which feeds into the BYU elitism that is ridiculously rampant in many parts of the church).

You're so right. I wonder why the church doesn't do it. Seems like a no brainer. Almost makes me think the church actually does think BYU is important and they might even have a reason for its existence.

[Scratch]

I've been living in Utah for the past 30+ years. And your comment is the very first time I've ever heard of this. Crazy.

Yeah, crazy, and I've only heard it a few times and believe it's a very small percentage of people who would think it.

The much more common perception, as others have referenced in this thread, is the BYU-grad-elitism that is seen in parts of the church.

[Scratch]

You're so right. I wonder why the church doesn't do it. Seems like a no brainer. Almost makes me think the church actually does think BYU is important and they might even have a reason for its existence.

What is that purpose? Under my proposal, I think that purpose would still exist, unless the purpose is to pay for the education of a select few members who can do very well on standardized testing.

[Eddie]

Yeah, crazy, and I've only heard it a few times and believe it's a very small percentage of people who would think it.

The much more common perception, as others have referenced in this thread, is the BYU-grad-elitism that is seen in parts of the church.

The funny thing to me is that the reason there is elitism is because there is enough demand that not everyone CAN attend BYU. So they use ever increasing ACT, SAT, and GPA scores to determine who is in and who is out.

Making the idea that everyone "should" attend there ridiculous.

[Paperback Writer]

Somehow we need to get our members to understand that forcing obedience to gospel principles by applying a system of reporting sins of other students to a group of bureaucrats and then having those bureaucrats assign a secular punishment (loss of scholarship, etc.) to that sin is not at all consistent with the gospel of Jesus Christ and is not productive in instilling healthy beliefs and values in students at a vulnerable stage in life. The current institute system works just fine.

Amen. The behavioral aspects of BYU's HC do not need to be propagated anywhere. I really wish BYU would do away with them. It damaged my testimony while a student at BYU and I was always in compliance with the HC. A good freind not only left the church but became an anti-Mormon after losing his scholarship to BYU.

Too many parents veiw BYU as a crutch, a way to somehow keep their kids active in the church and marry in the faith. So much so, that many send their kids to UVU when they don't get admitted to BYU. If these families instead sent their kids to local colleges, the institute numbers will improve.

[jay santos]

What is that purpose? Under my proposal, I think that purpose would still exist, unless the purpose is to pay for the education of a select few members who can do very well on standardized testing.

I don't think there is a purpose. I think the brethren are stupid and tens of thousands of Ute fans know better.

[Scratch]

I don't think there is a purpose. I think the brethren are stupid and tens of thousands of Ute fans know better.

You realize that church policies (as opposed to doctrines) change given the changes that are occurring in the church and the world/country, right? Were the brethren before 1978 stupid and all of the anti-LDS people knew better? Were the brethren who instituted athletic programs at Ricks stupid because that policy eventually changed?

Regarding BYU's "purpose," you can't possibly argue that BYU has had a single, uniform purpose or set of unchanging purposes that has been carried out by unchangeable (and unchanged) policies, can you?

[Cougarmandias]

The easiest way to do this would be to have the church either sell off its colleges or stop subsidizing colleges, and the take the enormous piles of money it has been throwing at tuition and use it to subsidize every LDS kid going to college anywhere as long as that kid holds a temple recommend. This would strengthen institutes and lend credence to the party line that the church doesn't doesn't actually want all college students to go to BYU (which is the perception held by many and which feeds into the BYU elitism that is ridiculously rampant in many parts of the church).

Nice. That's thinking outside the box.

You'd want to do it not just anywhere, though, but at specified 'magnet' unis with good institute programs.

I wonder if BYU's operating budget is known. Match that up with LDS demographic statistics and that should give an idea whether the subsidy would be worth anything.

[Paperback Writer]

Yeah, crazy, and I've only heard it a few times and believe it's a very small percentage of people who would think it.

The much more common perception, as others have referenced in this thread, is the BYU-grad-elitism that is seen in parts of the church.

Well, it's very common outside of Utah or the Mormon West. In many places, BYU alumns are the great majority of LDS wards. I see less BYU-grad-elitism because most everyone is a BYU grad in my ward. But what I do see is the reasoning that if a student gets accepted to BYU, he should enroll. That she has an obligation to attend because she was accepted.

I went the rounds both with a Seminary teacher and a Bishop over the matter when my kid chose not to attend BYU after getting accepted.

[Uncle Ted]

Somehow we need to get our members to understand that forcing obedience to gospel principles by applying a system of reporting sins of other students to a group of bureaucrats and then having those bureaucrats assign a secular punishment (loss of scholarship, etc.) to that sin is not at all consistent with the gospel of Jesus Christ and is not productive in instilling healthy beliefs and values in students at a vulnerable stage in life. The current institute system works just fine.

My daughter, while at BYU, was called into the honor code office and asked about the sins of her roommate. I told her to not tell them anything unless they offered a lot of money.