The Official Bell Helicopter Armed Forces Bowl Thread

[Coach McGuirk]

Is anyone unhappy with the victory yesterday?

I give up.

[ERCougar]

Not condescending as much as confusing to me. I don't really understand the point of what Lavell accomplished almost 30 years ago has anything to do with the program today. And I am not trying to be obtuse here, but other than consistently beating teams they should, what else? Those teams from the 80's were filled with trophy winners, Heisman contenders, record breakers, and BYU had an identity that was all their own. We don't have any of that currently.

And are you arguing that we should just be content with these 10 win seasons where this year the combined record of the 10 teams we beat was 44-79? Like I have said before, maybe I just expect too much of this team and program.

I didn't say our coaches suck. At least not Bronco or Doman. I simply suggested some changes I think the coaching staff needs. Weber needs to go. The OL has consistently underwhelmed and been dominated at times ever since Grimes left. I like Omer as a person but his strength and conditioning program is archaic. Much of it is counterproductive to what our players need. Those are the two guys that need to "retire" IMO. I also think Doman could use a QB coach. If for no other reason than to take something else off the plate of a new OC who was clearly over his head this year. That he and Bronco thought they could get by without one this year was extremely shortsighted. I also believe that Bronco's dedication and focus on the defense at times can detract from his overall game management.

And nobody thought this would be a building year. Certainly not the coaches and players who were quietly optimistic. The defense was expected to be stout with the best front 7 we've had maybe ever. We had the OC who was going to take us back to the old BYU style and away from Anae's predictability and conservatism. We had Heaps coming back off a successful freshman campaign who was lights out all through camp. And he had maybe the best WR duo ever in Hoff and Apo. Though most said that next year was the chance for this team to be really special, this year had high expectations.

I know that our team will never be in the top 25 rankings for recruits consistently (2009 we were). But when was the last time Utah was? Boise State? TCU? Hawaii? I'll give you a hint. Never. These are all schools that are similarly talented and playing similar schedules who have all managed to do what we haven't.

So no, I don't believe that these are talent issues. And I refuse to believe that. Our OL is far too talented to play the way they did. Even Matt played terrible for a lot of this year. He cost himself a few million dollars by not leaving early. Our QBs are too talented to all collectively suck. Our TEs are far too talented to all collectively suck. The only positions where there is a dearth of talent on this team are at RB and in the secondary. Even then, we have more talent than Bronco put out there in the defensive backfield. But that's Bronco being Bronco. Same way he doesn't start KVN.

I am one to normally just enjoy the ride but I am not happy with a 10 win season. We won every game we should have as those teams were all bad teams. We beat two teams with winning records with a combined record of 15-11. We endured a second year of a QB controversy that we shouldn't have. Our team was embarrassed at home by our rival. We have no offensive identity. Everything Doman said this offense would be has gone to the wayside. But we beat up on all the schools from Idaho!

Good post, and I don't disagree with most of it.

I agree with you on the OL. It's baffling. We recruit well here and have huge advantages (this is where missions can really benefit). So I'm willing to (and have) criticize Weber.

Regarding the offense--most people expected some lumps and growing pains here. Still, if Heaps hadn't regressed in game time, we would have beaten Texas, maybe Utah (that was just a crazy strange game...), and probably TCU. But he did. Maybe that's due to lack of a QB coach, but I'm skeptical. Probably can't hurt.

The defense was solid and I don't think anyone's complaining about them.

Overall that we're still ending ranked 20-30 in a year, despite some major unforeseen issues. I'm guessing Bronco will be the first to admit he made mistakes, but considering the issues that popped up, I think he did pretty well.

[Coach McGuirk]

It seems important for you to believe this is what you're doing, so I won't question it. I'll just say that I despise your methods, and guarantee they won't do anyone any good. Rooting against the QB when there's nobody on the roster who can do better is just stupid.

It seems important to acknowledge the limited talent of BYU's teams and how much they have historically benefited from weak schedules and offensive schemes that work to hide the lack of talent. Doman's offense does not do this, and if rumors are true, he's trying to move to an offense that amplifies a lack of talent (a running spread).

I'm not saying we should all be satisfied when BYU ends up ranked 50th or wherever our recruiting would predict; I am saying that consistently winning 10 games a year is remarkable given what Bronco is working with, which in my estimation makes him a good coach. What he doesn't seem to be is a great coach that can take the next step.

I'll agree that I was pretty pissed yesterday and that was focused at Nelson, and it shouldn't have been. I could have been clearer to direct it at the coaches.

[smokymountainrain]

What is great? I guess one could argue that have been a few great teams (84' and '96 comes to mind) at BYU. Certainly we do not have the history to hold ourselves to the standards of USC.

The fans in the seventies and eighties would have killed for yesterday's victory.

See, but that's the thing - even the "great" '96 team lost a game it should not have lost. The bottom line is Riley Nelson has done and will probably do what ever other BYU QB in history has done -- that is win a lot of games and lose one or two token games -- just enough to keep BYU from being great. Yet there are certain fans that seem to think having Riley Nelson at quarterback will prevent BYU from being great. Only Bosco, of all the Cougar QBs, was able to make BYU great, to take them to the top. It's funny that people think Heaps, of all people, would have done what Detmer, Young, Sarkisian, Walsh, Hall, Beck, McMahon and others couldn't do.

I'm the most dissatisfied, pessimistic, critical sporst fan ever - you better believe I don't want to settle for good - I want great. I will and have criticized Bronco over and over again because I don't think he's willing to take the risks and make the decisions necessary to be great. He's like Jerry Sloan - a very good coach whose teams will always be good, but will never be great because he's too conservative. And that pisses me off. But the disconnect I have with the McGuirk's, Surfah's and Junkie's of the world is that I don't see Heaps being able to accomplish what no other QB in the history of BYU football could do with the exception of Bosco. Hence the reason I've decided to come to grips with the fact that BYU coaches had to play Nelson because he was the best QB this year. Yes, they could have played Heaps, but in the long run, at best, he would be the same as every other QB at BYU and lose one or two token games. So why not go with the best guy this year who will do the same (meaning win 10-11 games and lose one or two) while he's the starter?

[Coach McGuirk]

Let me also add, woot that what bronco is working with, to his credit, is a hell of a lot of talent, which adds to the frustration.

[TripletDaddy]

I'm the most dissatisfied, pessimistic, critical sporst fan ever

[woot]

Let me also add, woot that what bronco is working with, to his credit, is a hell of a lot of talent, which adds to the frustration.

Compared to what? The talent at BYU is above average relative to the 120 FBS schools, but it seems the fans want to win against the best. Have you looked at the classes the best bring in? BYU's one or two big recruits per year (when they can even get that many) would blend right in on a lot of teams' lists.

As much as I love KVN, have you noticed that on his big plays he isn't getting blocked? That's because Bronco puts him in good positions. Yes, he's also really good, but do you really think he'd stick out much playing against great offenses where he had to fight off a block every play?

[ERCougar]

If we were headed to the B12 next year, would people be more excited about next season?

Maybe that's it. The B12 mess has just left a bad taste for football and our future. We're going to end the season 10-15 spots higher than Utah on most computer polls (and just played a better bowl opponent), but I don't see nearly the same level of complaining. And I don't see a huge difference between Riley and Wynn.

[woot]

If we were headed to the B12 next year, would people be more excited about next season?

Maybe that's it. The B12 mess has just left a bad taste for football and our future. We're going to end the season 10-15 spots higher than Utah on most computer polls (and just played a better bowl opponent), and I don't see nearly the same level of complaining. And I don't see a huge difference between Riley and Wynn.

I would mostly be scared. Utah beat BYU 54-10, and then proceeded to... not do very well in a weak BCS conference. BYU would not be playing in a bowl this year if they had played in the Big12.

I'm also not convinced that BCS affiliation would have the same recruiting perks for BYU that it probably will for Utah. I'm sure it would help, but I'm not sure how much.

[Surfah]

I'll agree that I was pretty pissed yesterday and that was focused at Nelson, and it shouldn't have been. I could have been clearer to direct it at the coaches.

Meh, be mad at Nelson. Who cares if it is irrational? I liken my disdain for Nelson and his style of play to my hate of Zylstra. My ire should be directed at Rose for playing that waste of space 30 minutes a game, but it is not. Similarly, I should be pissed that our coaches had no other option than Riley when Heaps sucked. I should also be pissed that they were not able to develop Heaps, Munns, Lark, and to a large degree Nelson (his play is reckless as ever and decision making questionable at best). Instead I hate that Nelson plays the game with more abandon than your intramural flag football all-star, or Brock Zylstra. And I hate that the whole team and coaches not only embrace that but seem to encourage it. Riley is the perfect backup QB. And that is what he should be. That he is the best we got is a major indictment on Bronco IMO.

[Shaka]

See, but that's the thing - even the "great" '96 team lost a game it should not have lost. The bottom line is Riley Nelson has done and will probably do what ever other BYU QB in history has done -- that is win a lot of games and lose one or two token games -- just enough to keep BYU from being great. Yet there are certain fans that seem to think having Riley Nelson at quarterback will prevent BYU from being great. Only Bosco, of all the Cougar QBs, was able to make BYU great, to take them to the top. It's funny that people think Heaps, of all people, would have done what Detmer, Young, Sarkisian, Walsh, Hall, Beck, McMahon and others couldn't do.

I'm the most dissatisfied, pessimistic, critical sporst fan ever - you better believe I don't want to settle for good - I want great. I will and have criticized Bronco over and over again because I don't think he's willing to take the risks and make the decisions necessary to be great. He's like Jerry Sloan - a very good coach whose teams will always be good, but will never be great because he's too conservative. And that pisses me off. But the disconnect I have with the McGuirk's, Surfah's and Junkie's of the world is that I don't see Heaps being able to accomplish what no other QB in the history of BYU football could do with the exception of Bosco. Hence the reason I've decided to come to grips with the fact that BYU coaches had to play Nelson because he was the best QB this year. Yes, they could have played Heaps, but in the long run, at best, he would be the same as every other QB at BYU and lose one or two token games. So why not go with the best guy this year who will do the same (meaning win 10-11 games and lose one or two) while he's the starter?

I think Bronco is hamstrung to a degree by the administration. The culture at BYU has changed since the Lavell era. We are getting some of the better LDS athletes but the increased enforcement of the honor code really limits who you can get otherwise.

I look at yesterday's game as a stepping stone for next year. It's true, BYU has been beating up on the dregs. Tulsa, while not great, is a decent team. When you consider the soap opera that has been the last two years a bowl win against a good team is a feather in BYU's cap. It also sets the stage for next year when the soap opera stuff goes away and the business of football takes center stage.

I think BYU is in a great position to do some damage next season. From a unity perspective the team is going to be much tighter. Next year's team will have great leadership who will set the example in the off-season and inspire hard work in their teammates. I believe the last two years will add a measure of maturity to the coaches and that Doman especially will shine and learn to balance his dual roles more effectively. I truly believe that having gone through the Jake era Bronco will have a better understanding how to manage top recruits.

Leadership is going to be a big deal next season. We all know that we have a great leader in Nelson. What's going to make things even better is I believe Van Noy is going to blossom as a leader. I almost choke up when I think about what that kid has gone through to be part of BYU. His post-game interviews reflect a maturity that I never thought he'd have. His on the field play is nothing short of amazing. It would appear he has made the mighty change and is being blessed for it.

BYU has a tough schedule next year. There's a good possibility that eight wins is all we can hope for. With that said I think if ever was there was a BYU team that was going to be greater than the sum of its parts, it will be the team that takes the field next season. Frankly I'm excited to see what happens.

[Jeff Lebowski]

lol. The only differnce here as I see it, is some fans are willing to settle for good, and others are pushing for great.

Coach, you know I love you. But that was a really funny post.

[Surfah]

Compared to what? The talent at BYU is above average relative to the 120 FBS schools, but it seems the fans want to win against the best. Have you looked at the classes the best bring in? BYU's one or two big recruits per year (when they can even get that many) would blend right in on a lot of teams' lists.

As much as I love KVN, have you noticed that on his big plays he isn't getting blocked? That's because Bronco puts him in good positions. Yes, he's also really good, but do you really think he'd stick out much playing against great offenses where he had to fight off a block every play?

Win against the best? I'd settle for winning against what we're facing and have faced.

ERcougar nailed it for me. I am sick of good seasons. I want a great season. We have better resources and facilities than any of the other BCS crashers. As you already noted above we have better talent most years. Yet we have not done what Utah has done twice against the same shit schedules. And look where that got them. Without those two seasons they're not in the Pac. That is what I want. And that is what this team should be able to accomplish but continually comes up short in an effort to do so.

[Indy Coug]

Win against the best? I'd settle for winning against what we're facing and have faced.

ERcougar nailed it for me. I am sick of good seasons. I want a great season. We have better resources and facilities than any of the other BCS crashers. As you already noted above we have better talent most years. Yet we have not done what Utah has done twice against the same shit schedules. And look where that got them. Without those two seasons they're not in the Pac. That is what I want. And that is what this team should be able to accomplish but continually comes up short in an effort to do so.

For future reference, what constitutes a "great season"?

[Coach McGuirk]

Coach, you know I love you. But that was a really funny post.

I would rather be hated for what I am than loved for what I am not!