The Official Bell Helicopter Armed Forces Bowl Thread

[ERCougar]

I'm curious about the stylistic differences between the two posts. The second paragraphs are identical so we can throw those out. You added the "underrated" sentence as a afterthought, so let's throw that out. But in the first paragraph, you try two different approaches, both of which say basically the same thing. Why the double post? I'm not challenging the post itself, but the reasoning for posting the same thing two times in a row but for some minor cosmetic changes. I think it is interesting.

The first one came across as condescending. I didn't mean it that way, so I edited. Maybe the second still does.

[Coach McGuirk]

The first one came across as condescending. I didn't mean it that way, so I edited. Maybe the second still does.

Yes, it still does.

[oxcoug]

Did you watch BYU in the 80s? Consistency against bad competition is what we are. It's what brought us a national championship. It's what brought Lavell a stadium. It's also underrated.
.

I'd guess that Surfah did exactly that - and in the 80s he saw BYU bring home one national championship with a perfect record, a 12 win season, two 11 win seasons. I think it's watching BYU in the 80s and hearing Bronco talk abt the BCS as being our goal that's in our grasp that gives him the crazy idea that BYU could actually achieve what Boise St, Utah and TCU have all achieved in the 2000s.

when is our recruiting class ever ranked highly? Maybe some of these "coaching issues" are really "talent issues".

By most evaluations our recruiting class has outranked Utah's in all but two years in the past decade. And in that period they have won two BCS games.

And re Jake Heaps - your stomach health notwithstanding, the kid dealt with some intensely difficult personal challenges at key moments in this season. I know you think it's your place to decide how much those should or should not impact his play, but I think it would be a very rare person who was not impacted by what he was going through.

Finally - I'm not actually disappointed in this season in terms of the outcomes. But I do agree with Surfah's assessment of the underperformance of certain position groups. I am weary - as much as I have defended Bronco throughout his career - of his preference for character, life experience and seniority over talent (see Corby Eason and Travis Uale and the history of Andrew Rich almost leaving bc he wasn't getting a chance to compete with Kellen Fowler).

[ERCougar]

I'd guess that Surfah did exactly that - and in the 80s he saw BYU bring home one national championship with a perfect record, a 12 win season, two 11 win seasons. I think it's watching BYU in the 80s and hearing Bronco talk abt the BCS as being our goal that's in our grasp that gives him the crazy idea that BYU could actually achieve what Boise St, Utah and TCU have all achieved in the 2000s.




By most evaluations our recruiting class has outranked Utah's in all but two years in the past decade. And in that period they have won two BCS games.

And re Jake Heaps - your stomach health notwithstanding, the kid dealt with some intensely difficult personal challenges at key moments in this season. I know you think it's your place to decide how much those should or should not impact his play, but I think it would be a very rare person who was not impacted by what he was going through.

Finally - I'm not actually disappointed in this season in terms of the outcomes. But I do agree with Surfah's assessment of the underperformance of certain position groups. I am weary - as much as I have defended Bronco throughout his career - of his preference for character, life experience and seniority over talent (see Corby Eason and Travis Uale and the history of Andrew Rich almost leaving bc he wasn't getting a chance to compete with Kellen Fowler).

I don't see much of a difference between the WAC of the 80's and the last half of our current schedule.

I think you nailed what's causing most of the angst here--Utah's recent success. It's the comparison that bugs. But that doesn't make our staff bad--truth is, both of these staffs have been overperforming for some time. Also, consider what we could have been without the HC violations that deplete those recruiting classes--could that account for some of the disparity?

As far as the character thing: I agree that it seems baffling. But I have a hard time criticizing the football decisions of a guy that knows more about football than any of us, has more invested in the outcomes than any of us, and spends more time with the players than any of us. Oh yeah--and is consistently winning. Is he really self-sabotaging? Or does he have more of the picture than we do?

EDIT: Just realized I skipped the Jake Heaps thing. I guess I misstated my point. I have no idea how much personal family stuff can affect a kids' game. I was talking a lot more about the coach/player personnel excuses that people were throwing out--of which there were plenty.

[Shaka]

ER is right. One can only imagine the reaction if CUF or Cougarboard had been around for Ty Detmer's five interception performance vs. Oregon or the 1980/1984 Holiday Bowls where BYU played like crap for most of the game. Steve Young had three picks in the '83 bowl and needed a trick play (Stinnet throwing a TD to Young) at the last second to beat Missouri.

From a historical perspective yesterday's win was very much a typical BYU game. The big difference now is that many BYU fans are so wrapped up in the backstory that they can't be happy with the end result. I watched all of games mentioned above and remember being pissed at certain points in the game where BYU was playing horribly. However scoreboard trumped everything and I remember walking on clouds for days after those wins. I wasn't alone. This is how the majority of the fans I knew approached the game.

If there was one New Years Resolution I'd wish on BYU fans is that they would learn how to win. All the angst, hand-wringing, and self-loathing is lame.

[Coach McGuirk]

If there was one New Years Resolution I'd wish on BYU fans is that they would learn how to win. All the angst, hand-wringing, and self-loathing is lame.

lol. The only differnce here as I see it, is some fans are willing to settle for good, and others are pushing for great.

[oxcoug]

I have a hard time criticizing the football decisions of a guy that knows more about football than any of us, has more invested in the outcomes than any of us

.... and is getting paid 800 large (or thereabouts) for all that.

As far as the character thing: I agree that it seems baffling. But I have a hard time criticizing the football decisions of a guy that knows more about football than any of us

There's a fallacy here. Being a football coach isn't like being a heart specialist. Yes, there's a lot of expertise and specialized learning involved and the experience matters - but there is as much art in coaching as there is science and there are some fans who have spent enough of their lives in and around football that they can make intelligent and informed criticisms. There are many more who haven't but will make criticisms anyway.

Point being - coaches are wrong all the time. They misevaluate talent - even at the professional level - all the time. How else do you explain the 49ers taking Gio Carmazzi and Alex Smith when they could have had Tom Brady or Aaron Rogers at the same spots? How else do you explain our 2-QB debacle last year? (Which, for disclosure, I supported, and I was wrong).

Coaches and football "experts" are often wrong because there is a lot of guesswork that goes into personnel decisions and even strategic decisions. Given that there is a lot of informed guessing it's fair for fans - who are also invested and who are spending their money rather than getting paid to be invested - to raise questions about what systems or patterns underlie the decision-making of a particular coach.

I happen to think that Bronco prefers to err in favor of high-effort guys who have overcome obstacles precisely because HE was that type of guy - he favors the guys who aren't the big recruits who got courted by BYU because he resented the fact that he didn't get recruited by BYU. And I think that this tendency - while explicable and in many cases defensible - can sometimes handicap him in personnel decisions.

Is he really self-sabotaging? Or does he have more of the picture than we do?

Again, the extent to which personnel decisions are as much artful guesswork as they are science can be shown by the Heaps-Nelson debate in 2010. Anae wanted to start Heaps, Doman wanted to start Nelson, Bronco wanted the 2-QB compromise. They are all football professionals - which one was right?

[ERCougar]

lol. The only differnce here as I see it, is some fans are willing to settle for good, and others are pushing for great.

Yup! Nothing else to see here!

Guess we can all log off now.

[woot]

I thought some rankings might be fun, so here I go looking for numbers. I'll just use Scout, since their format is easiest and it'll provide a ballpark (I used Rivals for 2009; Scout only shows the top 25 for that year).

BYU Utah
2012 46 51
2011 66 40
2010 22 50
2009 50 44
2008 57 65
2007 42 66
2006 46 60
2005 53 71
2004 55 68
2003 59 95
2002 46 84

Take-aways: Coaching matters a lot, both teams long benefited from a schedule full of tomato cans that didn't expose their lack of talent, and neither team has any business expecting to make noise on the national scene.

Presumably, Utah's recruiting will improve in the Pac (Arizona and ASU tend to live in the 30s or 40s, which is probably a reasonable expectation for Utah eventually).

[Indy Coug]

If there was one New Years Resolution I'd wish on BYU fans is that they would learn how to win. All the angst, hand-wringing, and self-loathing is lame.

[Shaka]

lol. The only differnce here as I see it, is some fans are willing to settle for good, and others are pushing for great.

What is great? I guess one could argue that have been a few great teams (84' and '96 comes to mind) at BYU. Certainly we do not have the history to hold ourselves to the standards of USC.

The fans in the seventies and eighties would have killed for yesterday's victory.

[Surfah]

The first one came across as condescending. I didn't mean it that way, so I edited. Maybe the second still does.

Not condescending as much as confusing to me. I don't really understand the point of what Lavell accomplished almost 30 years ago has anything to do with the program today. And I am not trying to be obtuse here, but other than consistently beating teams they should, what else? Those teams from the 80's were filled with trophy winners, Heisman contenders, record breakers, and BYU had an identity that was all their own. We don't have any of that currently.

And are you arguing that we should just be content with these 10 win seasons where this year the combined record of the 10 teams we beat was 44-79? Like I have said before, maybe I just expect too much of this team and program.

I didn't say our coaches suck. At least not Bronco or Doman. I simply suggested some changes I think the coaching staff needs. Weber needs to go. The OL has consistently underwhelmed and been dominated at times ever since Grimes left. I like Omer as a person but his strength and conditioning program is archaic. Much of it is counterproductive to what our players need. Those are the two guys that need to "retire" IMO. I also think Doman could use a QB coach. If for no other reason than to take something else off the plate of a new OC who was clearly over his head this year. That he and Bronco thought they could get by without one this year was extremely shortsighted. I also believe that Bronco's dedication and focus on the defense at times can detract from his overall game management.

And nobody thought this would be a building year. Certainly not the coaches and players who were quietly optimistic. The defense was expected to be stout with the best front 7 we've had maybe ever. We had the OC who was going to take us back to the old BYU style and away from Anae's predictability and conservatism. We had Heaps coming back off a successful freshman campaign who was lights out all through camp. And he had maybe the best WR duo ever in Hoff and Apo. Though most said that next year was the chance for this team to be really special, this year had high expectations.

I know that our team will never be in the top 25 rankings for recruits consistently (2009 we were). But when was the last time Utah was? Boise State? TCU? Hawaii? I'll give you a hint. Never. These are all schools that are similarly talented and playing similar schedules who have all managed to do what we haven't.

So no, I don't believe that these are talent issues. And I refuse to believe that. Our OL is far too talented to play the way they did. Even Matt played terrible for a lot of this year. He cost himself a few million dollars by not leaving early. Our QBs are too talented to all collectively suck. Our TEs are far too talented to all collectively suck. The only positions where there is a dearth of talent on this team are at RB and in the secondary. Even then, we have more talent than Bronco put out there in the defensive backfield. But that's Bronco being Bronco. Same way he doesn't start KVN.

I am one to normally just enjoy the ride but I am not happy with this 10 win season. We won every game we should have as those teams were all bad teams. We beat two teams with winning records with a combined record of 15-11. We endured a second year of a QB controversy that we shouldn't have. Our team was embarrassed at home by our rival. We have no offensive identity. Everything Doman said this offense would be has gone to the wayside. But we beat up on all the schools from Idaho!

[ERCougar]

.... and is getting paid 800 large (or thereabouts) for all that.




There's a fallacy here. Being a football coach isn't like being a heart specialist. Yes, there's a lot of expertise and specialized learning involved and the experience matters - but there is as much art in coaching as there is science and there are some fans who have spent enough of their lives in and around football that they can make intelligent and informed criticisms. There are many more who haven't but will make criticisms anyway.

Point being - coaches are wrong all the time. They misevaluate talent - even at the professional level - all the time. How else do you explain the 49ers taking Gio Carmazzi and Alex Smith when they could have had Tom Brady or Aaron Rogers at the same spots? How else do you explain our 2-QB debacle last year? (Which, for disclosure, I supported, and I was wrong).

Coaches and football "experts" are often wrong because there is a lot of guesswork that goes into personnel decisions and even strategic decisions. Given that there is a lot of informed guessing it's fair for fans - who are also invested and who are spending their money rather than getting paid to be invested - to raise questions about what systems or patterns underlie the decision-making of a particular coach.

I happen to think that Bronco prefers to err in favor of high-effort guys who have overcome obstacles precisely because HE was that type of guy - he favors the guys who aren't the big recruits who got courted by BYU because he resented the fact that he didn't get recruited by BYU. And I think that this tendency - while explicable and in many cases defensible - can sometimes handicap him in personnel decisions.




Again, the extent to which personnel decisions are as much artful guesswork as they are science can be shown by the Heaps-Nelson debate in 2010. Anae wanted to start Heaps, Doman wanted to start Nelson, Bronco wanted the 2-QB compromise. They are all football professionals - which one was right?

Blah, blah, blah...you're just pushing for great again.

I'm not saying he's beyond criticism. But regarding personnel decisions, there is a lot more than what goes on on the field, and he has a lot more information. If he's losing, or underperforming based on what we can expect (where recruiting classes and history come into play), then criticize away. My point is that he's doing better than what all of the inputs would lead us to expect. So I'm a little reticent to criticize.

But I agree--there are baffling decisions. But he's also surprisingly consistent. Maybe playing character guys leads to some of that consistency? I don't know.

[Indy Coug]

lol. The only differnce here as I see it, is some fans are willing to settle for good, and others are pushing for great.

The difference as I see it are fans that are wholly unrealistic about how good BYU should be and also seem to go to ridiculous lengths to dismiss BYU's past accomplishments.

[woot]

lol. The only differnce here as I see it, is some fans are willing to settle for good, and others are pushing for great.

It seems important for you to believe this is what you're doing, so I won't question it. I'll just say that I despise your methods, and guarantee they won't do anyone any good. Rooting against the QB when there's nobody on the roster who can do better is just stupid.

It seems important to acknowledge the limited talent of BYU's teams and how much they have historically benefited from weak schedules and offensive schemes that work to hide the lack of talent. Doman's offense does not do this, and if rumors are true, he's trying to move to an offense that amplifies a lack of talent (a running spread).

I'm not saying we should all be satisfied when BYU ends up ranked 50th or wherever our recruiting would predict; I am saying that consistently winning 10 games a year is remarkable given what Bronco is working with, which in my estimation makes him a good coach. What he doesn't seem to be is a great coach that can take the next step.