Was that a worst case scenario for our QB situation?

[Jeff Lebowski]

I agree Lebowski, lets either go back to the foyer and nitpick about LDS items or start the who is a better pick for the pac 12, utah or byu, thread back up.

Hey, have you visited out B12 expansion thread? 9000 posts and counting, baby!

Yeah, we overexamine everything on CUF. Just seems to me that we have repeated the same arguments over and over and over in this thread. But don't mind me. Carry on.

[Blueintheface]

I'm back believing Jake should start. Even the dregs of the PAC-12 can stack the box well enough to make Nelson look ridiculous. At least Jake can overthrow our receivers well enough to tire the safeties. Then we'll bring in Nelson and ABsolutely destroy them.

[Shaka]

And this is why I asked the question at the very beginning. I can appreciate Lebowski's response that Riley playing as poorly as Jake has the last two is the worst case scenario, but for those of that hoped this team would get to a certain level, I think watching Riley and seeing that he is neither the answer nor definitively not the answer for now just might be. I'll definitely give him credit in that he's performed well and improved noticeably throwing the ball, but he still is what we thought he was for the most part, which is a guy that doesn't have game-changing ability. But this is a team where all the skill position talent was lined up to grow together, and the biggest piece of the puzzle in terms of them reaching their ceiling was the QB.

In thinking about this the last couple days, I'm wondering how much of the blame with respect to our expectations for Jake and our offensive potential in general goes to the coaches. Since Jake walked on this campus, we've heard stuff from Doman like "he's a phenom at the position" and Bronco saying "he could be the best that's ever played here." These types of comments in my mind have been a disservice. Jake's play his last two starts has been poor, and based on the performance we've seen on the field alone, I would really start to question if he does indeed have the talent to get there. And just when I'm thinking maybe he'll never reach his upside or whatever, Bronco comes out in the pre-game against SJSU and is talking about how Jake is the kind of kid that is going to play on Sunday's and once again basically making me believe Riley is just a stop-gap until our next great QB is ready. wtf?

The coaches should have been on the same page from the outset saying "Jake has talent, but he has a long way to go to become a good college QB." We finally got that from Doman this offseason, but again it was couched between something about "Jake could be the best QB in college football, I don't shy away from saying that." It's just the wrong expectation, but if they keep selling it, we're going to keep wanting to see it materialize, because NFL caliber QB's are what we want to see at BYU, not a stop-gap or talent backup. And when the portion of the schedule presents itself such that the difference in playing the two won't result in any appreciable difference in the W/L column, people are going to be disappointed. But, as I said at the very beginning, you can't take Riley out now because of his play, and he'll be able to slide through a quarter of our schedule no problem. Kind of a crappy situation.

I agree with you. While I'm sure Jake had a high opinion of himself the coaches did no favors by feeding his ego. The situation is indeed crappy for all involved.

I think the best thing for Jake would have been to go on a mission. If that wasn't in the cards a redshirt freshman year would have benefited him. When Riley got hurt last year Lark could have got us through the rest of that season. It's possible that Jake would have been better prepared for this season had he not had the pressure of his freshman year.

In spite of my being a critic of Jake I actually feel bad for him in many ways.

[jay santos]

Let me tell you a story about a man named Jed...

Actually it's about my younger brother's high school basketball team.

My brother was starter at center his junior year. His best buddy was a starter as a soph and was an all-state caliber player. I played for the coach and in spite of his temper liked him a lot.

My brother's senior year the coach decided that he was going to cut all the seniors except for my brother, the all-stater, and one other kid and have a youth movement. The idea was to cultivate the young talent for the future.The problem was that there were seniors who were better than the underclassmen the coach picked up. Mind you there was some younger talent. The older brother of two future Utah Mr. Basketball's was on that team.

The coach started a alleged freshman phenom a the point, the three seniors, and a junior. The sixth man was a sophomore and another freshman was in the getting a lot of time. The team sucked and struggled mightily. The coach, in an effort to build a future winner, threw the seniors under the bus. Had he not cut the upperclassmen that team probably wouldn't have been anything too special but it probably would have made state and even won a tourney game or two.

Needless to say there were locker room problems galore. The coach's credibility was shot. The end result was the coach lost the team and ultimately resigned because he was going to get fired. Some of those leading the charge for the ouster were parents of the three seniors. I felt bad for my former coach but he got what he deserved. He was also a great teacher. Even worse was he was a alum of the school and was a very good college player.

As for the freshman phenom? He ended up being average and wasn't really well liked by the upperclasmen. None of the other underclassmen turned into anything special either.

The moral of the story is that sometimes you can really screw things up trying to be too proactive about the future. This was a high school example but similar things occur in the college ranks. Coaches can and do lose their by botching these kinds of issues.

Good story, but does absolutely nothing to address my comment.

BS. Players get behind a QB who's good. If Jake does well, they'll get behind him. If Nelson plays poorly, suddenly we'll hear rumors about how he's cocky and the players don't like him.

The problem in your story was not that he played young players with poor leadership skills. The problem was that he played young players that sucked. Plus this is college not high school. Warm fuzzy stuff like leadership, unity, all that does nothing for me. It always is a result of winning and talent and not a cause of it.

[Shaka]

I'm back believing Jake should start. Even the dregs of the PAC-12 can stack the box well enough to make Nelson look ridiculous. At least Jake can overthrow our receivers well enough to tire the safeties. Then we'll bring in Nelson and ABsolutely destroy them.

This may be the Post of the Day.

[Surfah]

What I find disappointing is that next season (which supposed to be the beginning of a couple of really special years for BYU) is going to begin with a QB controversy which at best will have Jake regain his position. However, Jake will be behind where everyone expected him to be in his development which at best will make next year what we thought this year would be. The worst case scenario is that Nelson retains his position next season (through his own progression or Jake's lack of progression) and Jake never reaches even a fraction of his potential by the time he is a senior. So basically BYU will have had a couple of OK seasons with Nelson but if if Jake were properly developed those two seasons could have been very special. Essentially BYU will be at least one year behind schedule and quite possibly 3-4 years behind schedule if Jake never develops.

There is much blame to share for this:

1. Jake for regressing in a big way and not getting it done on the field.

2. Doman for failing to provide effective gameplans and calls during the first third of the season.

3. Bronco for choosing an inexperienced guy to be his OC and failing to replace Doman with a great QB coach. Jake's coaching is failing him and that is mostly on Bronco TBH.

I wonder how much of this team thing is a reflection of Bronco's "culture?" As far as I can tell, the guys who don't like Jake are handful of key players that happen to be seniors. Tree, Jacobsen, etc., and all it would take is a few guys positioned as "leaders" to really start to push the team in a certain direction. I highly doubt Apo, Hoff, Wilson, Juice, et al, have any problem with Jake. Does the divide exist because they believe the more experience guy, the guy who has "paid his dues," should be playing?

There was a post on CB from yesterday about Tidwell being appalled at some point in talking with Manti because Manti believed he could play right away. Who knows if this is actually true, but you can see where it would be based on what we know about Bronoc. Is this mentality ingrained in the players? I know at the moment we could point to play and say Jake just isn't getting it done so that's why he lost the team, but it seems this problem predates Jake's struggles (which to me have only been serious in the UCF and Utah St games). Despite his excellent play to end the season, and despite all reports that he basically left Riley in the dust during camp, it still didn't seem like everyone was on board with him. To me that suggests they either didn't like him on a personal level, or they didn't believe he had "earned" the position, despite the fact that he was outperforming the other guy.

And this is why I asked the question at the very beginning. I can appreciate Lebowski's response that Riley playing as poorly as Jake has the last two is the worst case scenario, but for those of that hoped this team would get to a certain level, I think watching Riley and seeing that he is neither the answer nor definitively not the answer for now just might be. I'll definitely give him credit in that he's performed well and improved noticeably throwing the ball, but he still is what we thought he was for the most part, which is a guy that doesn't have game-changing ability. But this is a team where all the skill position talent was lined up to grow together, and the biggest piece of the puzzle in terms of them reaching their ceiling was the QB.

In thinking about this the last couple days, I'm wondering how much of the blame with respect to our expectations for Jake and our offensive potential in general goes to the coaches. Since Jake walked on this campus, we've heard stuff from Doman like "he's a phenom at the position" and Bronco saying "he could be the best that's ever played here." These types of comments in my mind have been a disservice. Jake's play his last two starts has been poor, and based on the performance we've seen on the field alone, I would really start to question if he does indeed have the talent to get there. And just when I'm thinking maybe he'll never reach his upside or whatever, Bronco comes out in the pre-game against SJSU and is talking about how Jake is the kind of kid that is going to play on Sunday's and once again basically making me believe Riley is just a stop-gap until our next great QB is ready. wtf?

The coaches should have been on the same page from the outset saying "Jake has talent, but he has a long way to go to become a good college QB." We finally got that from Doman this offseason, but again it was couched between something about "Jake could be the best QB in college football, I don't shy away from saying that." It's just the wrong expectation, but if they keep selling it, we're going to keep wanting to see it materialize, because NFL caliber QB's are what we want to see at BYU, not a stop-gap or talent backup. And when the portion of the schedule presents itself such that the difference in playing the two won't result in any appreciable difference in the W/L column, people are going to be disappointed. But, as I said at the very beginning, you can't take Riley out now because of his play, and he'll be able to slide through a quarter of our schedule no problem. Kind of a crappy situation.

I agree with what you both are saying here. Overall, this whole debacle we're in, I lay at the feet of the coaches. After the way things have shook out the past two years I am more convinced that Bronco is a good, maybe even great coach, but he would never be great at a school that attracted elite talent. He just doesn't have the personality or ability to control egos. I do think the culture he's tried to create at BYU undermines what they have tried to do with Heaps at the helm. This was clearly evident in Tree's inappropriate comments, not to mention the way the players respond to Riley. Shaka keeps saying that Jake lost the team and to put him back in would be to the detriment of the other players. I don't know how that can be true and not reflect poorly on Bronco, Doman, and staff.

[Shaka]

Shaka keeps saying that Jake lost the team and to put him back in would be to the detriment of the other players. I don't know how that can be true and not reflect poorly on Bronco, Doman, and staff.

This is probably true to an extent. However Jake probably bares some of the blame. Players are certainly capable of capable of becoming unpopular all by themselves. I think it's a mixture.

[cougjunkie]

I get why people are down on Riley. I also get that he is playing better than Jake.

I've already admitted that I find the, "play Jake because he's the future" argument is a valid one. My, "play the guy who's playing the best" argument is also valid.

A caller on Hans and OC just stated that from talking to some parents of players that Jake isn't well liked by a significant amount of the team. Hans confirmed that Jake has a small cadre of supporters but generally it is true that Jake has lost the team. He also agreed with me that Jake can rehabilitate this image if he humbles himself and works hard in practice.

If it's true that Riley has the support of his teammates coupled with the fact he's playing better, then it's very tough to put in Jake just to give him practice. Coaches lose teams and their jobs by doing this sort of thing.

Sorry but I still do not think its proven that Riley is playing better. 3 red zone turnovers against a terrible SJSU team.

[Jarid in Cedar]

Riley vs. Jake discussion:

You should be counting your blessings that you have a QB controversy.

[Shaka]

Sorry but I still do not think its proven that Riley is playing better. 3 red zone turnovers against a terrible SJSU team.

Opinions vary.

[Surfah]

This is probably true to an extent. However Jake probably bares some of the blame. Players are certainly capable of capable of becoming unpopular all by themselves. I think it's a mixture.

I agree. But that makes Bronco's culture of Band of Brothers smell a whole lot like BS.

[Shaka]

I agree. But that makes Bronco's culture of Band of Brothers smell a whole lot like BS.

Agreed. I've never really been one who gets into the Band of Brothers type stuff. I think it goes back to my high school coach bringing us in for some strange type of voodoo ritual the night before homecoming. The ritual culminated with a towel being sacrificed, cut up into little pieces, and each player receiving a piece of the towel to place in the bottom of his sock from then until the game was over.

In the end we lost the game and a bunch of little towel pieces were made to smell like ass.

[Hot Lunch]

Opinions vary.

I honestly thought that Riley started out the game playing well. He progressively got worse as the game went on. I thought he was really bad in the 2nd half. I actually laughed out loud when he played 500 (3 flys up) in the 3rd or 4th quarter.

[Tone Loc]

I honestly thought that Riley started the out the game playing well. He progressively got worse as the game went on. I thought he was really bad in the 2nd half. I actually laughed out loud when he played 500 (3 flys up) in the 3rd or 4th quarter.

Your ribs must be really hurting then, because I can only imagine the laugh fest you had from watching your boy Hays sling the pigskin around.

I loved how he flashed the U sign after each semi good play he had though. Sadly, he didnt have the opportunity to pop it out much.

[il Padrino Ute]

Your ribs must be really hurting then, because I can only imagine the laugh fest you had from watching your boy Hays sling the pigskin around.

I loved how he flashed the U sign after each semi good play he had though. Sadly, he didnt have the opportunity to pop it out much.

He really got you, HL.