Deadspin takes on the Honor Code

[I.J. Reilly]

2. In the 1850s two things started happening - (a) the leadup to the Civil War put the vulnerable Utah Territory in an awkward position and not wanting to alienate either side and (b) (I believe this is documented) instances of black LDS courting white LDS created a few incidents that threatened to disrupt the harmony of the young community

If I'm not mistaken, there was a fairly large contingent of Southern converts who brought slaves with them when they converted and moved into the southern parts of Utah during this period. I think this growth in the pro-slavery crowd w/in the church contributed towards cementing the policy/doctrine.

[SipiTau]

[YOUTUBE]jGQ-ISsDm8M[/YOUTUBE]

As a missionary I had an interesting conversation late one night over an Uno game. We lived in a small MIL apartment housing two sets of missionaries.

The other companionship consisted of two Georgia boys, one from Atlanta and the other from way up in the hills somewhere (sorry, can't remember). The Elder from Atlanta was very accepting of other people, and grew up with many friends of all races, lived in a suburban mixed-race neighborhood, and went to a fully integrated high school. I believe he dated a black girl for a while when in HS, and later married a lady from Jamaica.

The Elder from out in the the hills claimed to be tolerant of others, but very often used the N word. (he would say, "There are white "Ns", red "Ns", gook "Ns", towelhead "Ns" too. The "N" word means 'lowest form of life'...").

One night the conversation turned to "future challenges for the church". The conversation went something like this:

Georgia Elder from the hills: "If a black man were to be put in the Q12 or 1st Presidency, at least half of my stake would leave the church permanently."
naive me: "Seriously? What about their testimonies?"
hills: "Yeah, they still can't stand the thought of "Ns" preaching to them. They would think God doesn't run the church any more."
Atlanta Elder: "In my stake many of the older people would likely leave as well. The younger people would be OK with it, and some of us really WANT this type of thing to happen. It WOULD be a huge deal and it would force people and the church itself to address the issue, and pick a side."

I, from SLC, and my comp, from Canada somewhere, sat there dumbfounded.

I also recall having a very long conversation with a less-active member who was CONVINCED the church wouldn't let her back into full membership because the church wouldn't let her get sealed to her black fiance. I assured her there was no actual bias in the temple, but her mother (TBM, ironically) and other friends had her convinced otherwise. We were going to get the Branch President from the Compton Branch* (an all black branch at the time) to talk it over with her, but I was transferred and I don't know what happened after.

*SUPER cool guy with a great story and strong testimony, and was a body builder who competed in Mr. Universe for a few years.

Did you serve in the CLAM?

[NorthwestUteFan]

Did you serve in the CLAM?

I was in the Tiny Arcadia mission (smallest English-speaking mission at the time), speaking Mandarin. We effectively covered the entire Southland because Arcadia had the only Mandarin-speaking elders at the time (and 4 branches); in fact we had 14 languages represented. We mostly stayed within our boundaries, but spent time in the LA, Anaheim, and Riverside missions, and the mission to the northwest of us (San Fernando area, can't remember the name of the mission).

We went on splits from time to time with English or Spanish elders. The conversation with the less-active member took place in Walnut.

[oxcoug]

[YOUTUBE]jGQ-ISsDm8M[/YOUTUBE]

As a missionary I had an interesting conversation late one night over an Uno game. We lived in a small MIL apartment housing two sets of missionaries.

The other companionship consisted of two Georgia boys, one from Atlanta and the other from way up in the hills somewhere (sorry, can't remember). The Elder from Atlanta was very accepting of other people, and grew up with many friends of all races, lived in a suburban mixed-race neighborhood, and went to a fully integrated high school. I believe he dated a black girl for a while when in HS, and later married a lady from Jamaica.

The Elder from out in the the hills claimed to be tolerant of others, but very often used the N word. (he would say, "There are white "Ns", red "Ns", gook "Ns", towelhead "Ns" too. The "N" word means 'lowest form of life'...").

One night the conversation turned to "future challenges for the church". The conversation went something like this:

Georgia Elder from the hills: "If a black man were to be put in the Q12 or 1st Presidency, at least half of my stake would leave the church permanently."
naive me: "Seriously? What about their testimonies?"
hills: "Yeah, they still can't stand the thought of "Ns" preaching to them. They would think God doesn't run the church any more."
Atlanta Elder: "In my stake many of the older people would likely leave as well. The younger people would be OK with it, and some of us really WANT this type of thing to happen. It WOULD be a huge deal and it would force people and the church itself to address the issue, and pick a side."

I, from SLC, and my comp, from Canada somewhere, sat there dumbfounded.

I also recall having a very long conversation with a less-active member who was CONVINCED the church wouldn't let her back into full membership because the church wouldn't let her get sealed to her black fiance. I assured her there was no actual bias in the temple, but her mother (TBM, ironically) and other friends had her convinced otherwise. We were going to get the Branch President from the Compton Branch* (an all black branch at the time) to talk it over with her, but I was transferred and I don't know what happened after.

*SUPER cool guy with a great story and strong testimony, and was a body builder who competed in Mr. Universe for a few years.

This is a cautionary tale about why constantly reinforced central authority is so necessary in an org like the Church. Whether or not you believe that "apostasy" took place in the Early Church, there's definitely a process by which congregations defaulted more and more to their local customs, beliefs and prejudices. The Roman Catholic Church was definitely a creation of Rome and its customs.

If SLC were to withdraw itself and let local stakes develop on their own for a couple of decades I expect we'd see some freakier-than-usual developments.

[wally]

In essence that the priesthood ban was because the attitudes of the body of The Church were not such that they would allow for black people to be full fledged members. Until that changed, the issue could not even be considered.

At least that's what I heard her say and that's been my feeling for some time.

I heard that this is essentially the same reason that the brethren haven’t yet abolished BYU sports. The attitudes of the body of the church are not yet aligned with God’s will.

[NorthwestUteFan]

This is a cautionary tale about why constantly reinforced central authority is so necessary in an org like the Church. Whether or not you believe that "apostasy" took place in the Early Church, there's definitely a process by which congregations defaulted more and more to their local customs, beliefs and prejudices. The Roman Catholic Church was definitely a creation of Rome and its customs.

If SLC were to withdraw itself and let local stakes develop on their own for a couple of decades I expect we'd see some freakier-than-usual developments.

It is highly educational to look at the differences between the Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox, Greek Orthodox, etc. Undoubtedly we would see some strange practices in Mormondom.

Now I think about it, Islam does not have a central authority beyond the Koran and Suras. Different Muslim groups can have wildly different interpretations of the same scriptures and can run the gamut from being completely peaceful and tolerant of all other religions to radically intolerant of the very existance of other beliefs, including less-radical believers of Islam. The story of the Alhambra bore this out explicitly.

I heard that this is essentially the same reason that the brethren haven’t yet abolished BYU sports. The attitudes of the body of the church are not yet aligned with God’s will.

Reason #4,397,246 why I <3 wally.

ALUFs like Gordon B Hinckley were in touch with the Way, the Truth, and the Light, but lacked the temporal gravitas to bring BYU Sports to the sacrificial altar.

[TheAzzuri]

[YOUTUBE]jGQ-ISsDm8M[/YOUTUBE]

As a missionary I had an interesting conversation late one night over an Uno game. We lived in a small MIL apartment housing two sets of missionaries.

The other companionship consisted of two Georgia boys, one from Atlanta and the other from way up in the hills somewhere (sorry, can't remember). The Elder from Atlanta was very accepting of other people, and grew up with many friends of all races, lived in a suburban mixed-race neighborhood, and went to a fully integrated high school. I believe he dated a black girl for a while when in HS, and later married a lady from Jamaica.

The Elder from out in the the hills claimed to be tolerant of others, but very often used the N word. (he would say, "There are white "Ns", red "Ns", gook "Ns", towelhead "Ns" too. The "N" word means 'lowest form of life'...").

One night the conversation turned to "future challenges for the church". The conversation went something like this:

Georgia Elder from the hills: "If a black man were to be put in the Q12 or 1st Presidency, at least half of my stake would leave the church permanently."
naive me: "Seriously? What about their testimonies?"
hills: "Yeah, they still can't stand the thought of "Ns" preaching to them. They would think God doesn't run the church any more."
Atlanta Elder: "In my stake many of the older people would likely leave as well. The younger people would be OK with it, and some of us really WANT this type of thing to happen. It WOULD be a huge deal and it would force people and the church itself to address the issue, and pick a side."

I, from SLC, and my comp, from Canada somewhere, sat there dumbfounded.

I also recall having a very long conversation with a less-active member who was CONVINCED the church wouldn't let her back into full membership because the church wouldn't let her get sealed to her black fiance. I assured her there was no actual bias in the temple, but her mother (TBM, ironically) and other friends had her convinced otherwise. We were going to get the Branch President from the Compton Branch* (an all black branch at the time) to talk it over with her, but I was transferred and I don't know what happened after.

*SUPER cool guy with a great story and strong testimony, and was a body builder who competed in Mr. Universe for a few years.

How long ago was this?

[Viking]

If I'm not mistaken, there was a fairly large contingent of Southern converts who brought slaves with them when they converted and moved into the southern parts of Utah during this period. I think this growth in the pro-slavery crowd w/in the church contributed towards cementing the policy/doctrine.

Yes, they also are the origins of what i think is the worst accent in the US: the St. George dixie drawl.

i'd take nordestino and alentejano portuguese over dixie drawl any day. and i'm a texan

[NorthwestUteFan]

How long ago was this?

I didn't see this. Late 1991 I think. I recall BYU played Florida State (? or some big team) in a preseason game while I lived at that pad.

From the content of the conversation one might think it was 1961.

[OrangeUte]

http://www.espnmediazone3.com/us/201...-june-23-2011/

this was on espn recently re: byu's honor code...

[Surfah]

http://www.espnmediazone3.com/us/201...-june-23-2011/

this was on espn recently re: byu's honor code...

That quote by the volleyball player was silly. Do people really not know where the honor code office is? And the part about having friends who had people come up to them and say I am from the honor code office, you have to stop swearing was just stupid.

[OrangeUte]

That quote by the volleyball player was silly. Do people really not know where the honor code office is? And the part about having friends who had people come up to them and say I am from the honor code office, you have to stop swearing was just stupid.

I would like to see the whole piece but can't find it anywhere. Apparently it ran a few days ago - don't know if it's a rerun or recent.

[SteelBlue]

Do people really not know where the honor code office is?

I spent 4 years at the Y (and all of last week) and I have absolutely no clue where it is.

[Surfah]

I spent 4 years at the Y (and all of last week) and I have absolutely no clue where it is.

Really? It's in the SWKT. I am pretty sure it's there because of all the sociology classes in the building.

[cougjunkie]

I watched OTL this morning about this and Mekeli Wesley was talking about race and the honor code once again. Same boring topic.