Non-Conference Scheduling rumors

[Top Ute]

Okay, I understand the wrangling to get the 2011 game done. But that sounds more like a problem for the U, not a benefit to BYU. Beyond 2013, are there really any great benefits to BYU that aren't available to Utah for playing the game in November?

It's your home game, in your first year of independence. The idea that it's not a benefit for BYU is absurd. We didn't have to play BYU in 2011, but did.

As for 2013 and beyond, if this year's schedule is any indicator of the difficulty BYU has in scheduling marquee opponents (or avoiding two byes in November), then it's a great benefit for BYU to play the game in November. As for Utah, it's just another non-conference game. I don't think BYU's schedule will be that bad in that regard in future years, but as an independent, you'll take peace of mind and an assurance in scheduling any time you can get it.

[falafel]

It's your home game, in your first year of independence. The idea that it's not a benefit for BYU is absurd. We didn't have to play BYU in 2011, but did.

As for 2013 and beyond, if this year's schedule is any indicator of the difficulty BYU has in scheduling marquee opponents (or avoiding two byes in November), then it's a great benefit for BYU to play the game in November. As for Utah, it's just another non-conference game. I don't think BYU's schedule will be that bad in that regard in future years, but as an independent, you'll take peace of mind and an assurance in scheduling any time you can get it.

I took PU's comment to mean that it would be a recurring benefit to BYU to play the game in November, not just an isolated one this year. I think we all know that Utah playing BYU in 2011 "helps" BYU much more than it helps Utah.

But beyond that, I don't see how the game in November helps any one team more than the other. BYU will always need November games, so that's good, but does playing the game in November really harm Utah at all? Are the Utes less likely to play well in November as opposed to September? Are Ute fans less likely to come out for the games in November?

If this is about helping BYU schedule a game in November, and that's the only "benefit" to BYU, and there being no concurrent detriment to Utah, then I don't see what the fuss is. IT sounds to me like PU doesn't want to do it because PU will do the opposite of whatever BYU wants, even if there's no logical basis for it.

[Top Ute]

I took PU's comment to mean that it would be a recurring benefit to BYU to play the game in November, not just an isolated one this year. I think we all know that Utah playing BYU in 2011 "helps" BYU much more than it helps Utah.

But beyond that, I don't see how the game in November helps any one team more than the other. BYU will always need November games, so that's good, but does playing the game in November really harm Utah at all? Are the Utes less likely to play well in November as opposed to September? Are Ute fans less likely to come out for the games in November?

If this is about helping BYU schedule a game in November, and that's the only "benefit" to BYU, and there being no concurrent detriment to Utah, then I don't see what the fuss is. IT sounds to me like PU doesn't want to do it because PU will do the opposite of whatever BYU wants, even if there's no logical basis for it.

We've been on the same page all along. The assurance BYU would have of consistently having a marquee game late in the year is about the only benefit BYU would have in playing Utah in November. How much value there is to that is debatable.

At the same time, I don't look at the September dates and get a feeling that it's a bad fit for either team or for the rivalry. It will be interesting to see how the game is played under optimal conditions, without the season-ending ramifications and with both teams seeing the other cold, ie, without any common opponents to gameplan against.

If anything, a September game should be much more beneficial to BYU, because if there's one thing our coaching staff has shown is a willingness to go against the grain and mix things up, while BYU plays it straight. There's an obvious flip side to that, but I'm excited to see how the game plays out this year. And the only part of me that would ever want to see the rivalry discontinued would be out of pure spite.

[Maximus]

It's your home game, in your first year of independence. The idea that it's not a benefit for BYU is absurd. We didn't have to play BYU in 2011, but did.

As for 2013 and beyond, if this year's schedule is any indicator of the difficulty BYU has in scheduling marquee opponents (or avoiding two byes in November), then it's a great benefit for BYU to play the game in November. As for Utah, it's just another non-conference game. I don't think BYU's schedule will be that bad in that regard in future years, but as an independent, you'll take peace of mind and an assurance in scheduling any time you can get it.

Just another game huh? Are you one of those claiming Colorado is your new rival? Don't try and act the game means less to Utah fans now than BYU fans.

[Portland Ute]

I took PU's comment to mean that it would be a recurring benefit to BYU to play the game in November, not just an isolated one this year. I think we all know that Utah playing BYU in 2011 "helps" BYU much more than it helps Utah.

But beyond that, I don't see how the game in November helps any one team more than the other. BYU will always need November games, so that's good, but does playing the game in November really harm Utah at all? Are the Utes less likely to play well in November as opposed to September? Are Ute fans less likely to come out for the games in November?

If this is about helping BYU schedule a game in November, and that's the only "benefit" to BYU, and there being no concurrent detriment to Utah, then I don't see what the fuss is. IT sounds to me like PU doesn't want to do it because PU will do the opposite of whatever BYU wants, even if there's no logical basis for it.

Playing BYU in November would be a recurring benefit for BYU. BYU is going to have a tough time scheduling marquee games in November as an independent on a yearly basis. Even if Utah sucks, it will be the rivalry game. Having that as the last game gives BYU fans and players something to look towards once the BCS dream is ended by the end of October and there is no conference championship to play for. Putting the rivalry at the end of the year maintains some semblance of excitement for BYU until the end of the season.

For Utah, it's a risk. I'll be honest enough to say that BYU is a tough opponent. If Utah is to lose an OOC game, then I'd rather it happen before PAC12 play begins. Get it out of the way and put it well behind us by the end of the year. Sorry, but losing to BYU is at the end of the year is not going to win friends or influence people However, we've seen that BCS teams often get the benefit of the doubt when they lose early and then make hay in the conference.

I'm also going to say that Utah needs to "dumb down" it's schedule as much as possible the next 3-5 years. Really, I'd like to see them schedule 3 lower quality FBS teams like Wyoming, UNM, Fresno, USU, etc. rather than BYU, Pitt, etc.

I believe the transition to the PAC12 is going to be a tough move for Utah. Not 3-9 tough, but probably 6-6 or 7-5 tough. I think this could be the case in the near future until/unless Utah gets the PAC12 recruiting going, builds some facilities, etc. It's going to take some time to catch up and get to the point of competing for PAC12 championships. In the meantime, I'd like Utah to "book" 3 wins in OOC. That would allow for a 3-6 or 4-5 finish in the PAC and still get us to a bowl game. A bowl game keeps Utah respectable with recruits. Therefore, in admitting that I think BYU is a tough opponent and that game is generally 50/50 as to who wins, I'd like to see us put the game on hiatus for a while.

Call it cowardly, whatever. I just see a LOT of moving parts over the next 3-5 years and I believe Urban when he says that we need to "get control of our out of conference schedule". I'd like for us to plan for the worst (getting knocked around in PAC12 play) while also getting to a bowl game and HOPE for the best.

Look, I'm admitting that you BYU guys are right and Utah is going to get slaughtered in the PAC12. I think Utah needs to schedule as many OOC wins as it can. BYU is not a scheduled win. To minimize the impact, I'd like the game, if it's to be played, buried at the beginning of the year.

This post probably belongs on another thread.

[Portland Ute]

Just another game huh? Are you one of those claiming Colorado is your new rival? Don't try and act the game means less to Utah fans now than BYU fans.

It might not mean less to Utah fans, but it certainly means less to the Utah program.

Utah still has a conference championship to play for, top level non-BCS bowl games, and has no problem scheduling home games with good competition or late November games vis a vis Utah's conference affiliation. BYU has none of that.

If/when this game is played, both fanbases will be equally keyed up for the game.

One other thing I believe is this: Utah's continued "rivalry" game with BYU makes the development of PAC12 rivalries much less likely. I think if BYU was off the schedule, the energy and emotions would, eventually, be directed towards another program.

Utah had quite a rivalry with CU many years ago. It could once more. Not immediately. However, you never know. Seems like Utah and TCU and BYU and TCU built up quite a little rivalry in just a few short years. There are definitely some bad feelings between BYU/BSU and Utah/BSU and they rarely face one another. It doesn't take much to set fanbases off on one another and if they are playing each other every year, it tends to create a rivalry. (It's the ONE unfortunate part of the demise of the MWC. BYU, BSU, Utah and TCU would have developed some pretty intense rivalries as time went on...)

[pellegrino]

Utah has no reason to move the game. The move to November at this point benefits only BYU and it would be a HUGE benefit to BYU.

I think, to some degree, the rivalry in the state of Utah is a zero-sum game and it's a cutthroat world. Utah has some leverage here and I think they ought to use it.

Having the game in Novermber benefits BYU as an independent from a scheduling standpoint, but I think it benefits Utah long term too. It's a great rivalry game, one that I'm sure ESPN would love to showcase.

It has the potential of being very similar to the ND USC game: two good teams with a long history of playing each other, but they aren't in the same conference and so there are no conference title implications at stake. I don't think anyone would say that USC gets no benefit from playing ND in November.

[Portland Ute]

Having the game in Novermber benefits BYU as an independent from a scheduling standpoint, but I think it benefits Utah long term too. It's a great rivalry game, one that I'm sure ESPN would love to showcase.

It has the potential of being very similar to the ND USC game: two good teams with a long history of playing each other, but they aren't in the same conference and so there are no conference title implications at stake. I don't think anyone would say that USC gets no benefit from playing ND in November.

I guess DDD can weigh in on this. I don't see what huge benefit USC gets from that game either. I think USC would do just fine without the game. The issue there is, however, that the USC/ND game has become a national event. It's gotten bigger than either ND and USC and it has a momentum that keeps it going. I think ND,as a flailing independent that is losing it's relevance, needs that game a LOT more than USC these days.

While I think the U/BYU game has been that way for the past 17 years, I am told by BYU fans that there was no rivalry before that. I'm guessing the nation would not be upset if it were to end.

[pellegrino]

I guess DDD can weigh in on this. I don't see what huge benefit USC gets from that game either. I think USC would do just fine without the game. The issue there is, however, that the USC/ND game has become a national event. It's gotten bigger than either ND and USC and it has a momentum that keeps it going. I think ND,as a flailing independent that is losing it's relevance, needs that game a LOT more than USC these days.

While I think the U/BYU game has been that way for the past 17 years, I am told by BYU fans that there was no rivalry before that. I'm guessing the nation would not be upset if it were to end.

now you're just being silly. Any BYU fan who says that is just trying to get a rise out of you. The rivalry has been there all along, it just wasn't very competitive for a long while.

The fact is that if both teams keep playing and ranking as well as they have for the past five years then they'll both benefit from a high profile game late in the season. The only thing that Utah risks is going into the game undefeated and in the mix for the BCS championship. A loss to BYU at any point in the season will disqualify them from that, but beating a good BYU team late in the season will only help their cause.

[Surfah]

now you're just being silly. Any BYU fan who says that is just trying to get a rise out of you. The rivalry has been there all along, it just wasn't very competitive for a long while.

The fact is that if both teams keep playing and ranking as well as they have for the past five years then they'll both benefit from a high profile game late in the season. The only thing that Utah risks is going into the game undefeated and in the mix for the BCS championship. A loss to BYU at any point in the season will disqualify them from that, but beating a good BYU team late in the season will only help their cause.

Right. And this is why Utah would rather have the game early. They know BYU is formidable and can win any time they meet up and it's much easier to recover from a loss in September than November. Utah is scared.

[shoganai]

Shog, not to start another round of slug fest, but what is in it for Utah to play the game late in the year?

I know, I know...this is going to sound pretty elitist, but BYU is much more in need of a late November game with a quality opponent than Utah is. BYU is much more in need of HOME games with quality opponents than Utah is.

As a U. fan, I think the U. should keep the game in September unless BYU wants to make some sort of concessions to get the game moved to November. By concessions, I mean a much larger ticket allotment when the game is at LES, some cash if the game is at LES and on ESPN or maybe a 3-4 scheduling deal.

Utah has no reason to move the game. The move to November at this point benefits only BYU and it would be a HUGE benefit to BYU.

I think, to some degree, the rivalry in the state of Utah is a zero-sum game and it's a cutthroat world. Utah has some leverage here and I think they ought to use it.

I guess my question in return would be, what reason does Utah have not to play the game later in the year?

It certainly can't hurt Utah to play BYU later and Colorado earlier. So why not stick with tradition and play it when rivalries are supposed to be played?

Unless you're going to argue that the contrived CU/Utah rivalry is somehow going to surpass it in the minds of fans, it seems silly to put it in September just because the teams don't share a conference anymore.

[shoganai]

From a fan's perspective, this whole debate about when to schedule the rivalry boils down to a couple of basic bullet points, IMO:

-Unless one of the teams goes through a long, protracted Crowton/Fassel-esque crash, this will remain as big as any other game on either team's schedule year in and year out. No Pac-12 rivalry can replace it for Utah. Nobody can replace it for BYU. There is simply no replacement for a rivalry with all of the culture, geography, and history that tie these two teams together. The mere existence of this Web site should be proof enough of that.

-Whether it's played in September or November is mostly irrelevant in any practical sense. Putting it at the end of November will neither hurt nor help Utah's Pac-12 play. Putting it in September will not make or break BYU's independent scheduling. Neither team will gain any kind of regular competitive advantage on the field based on when it happens.

That being said, one of the funnest things about this rivalry, IMO, is that playing it at the end of the year makes the buildup last for the entire season. And, college football games like this are meant to be played at season's end according to history and tradition all across the country. Yes, there are exceptions, but usually only when teams have more than one arch-rival, which neither BYU or Utah have (or will have anytime soon).

So, I say let's do what needs to be done to play it in November when it has always been played. Why change a good thing?

[Top Ute]

Just another game huh? Are you one of those claiming Colorado is your new rival? Don't try and act the game means less to Utah fans now than BYU fans.

What benefits are there to beating BYU that supersede anything Utah would get by winning its remaining 12 games? Fine, maybe a BYU loss would keep Utah out of the BCS title game, but knowing your sentiments about Utah, the idea of Utah ever going 11-1 again is something you'd bet everything you own against ever happening again.

[TripletDaddy]

I guess DDD can weigh in on this. I don't see what huge benefit USC gets from that game either. I think USC would do just fine without the game. The issue there is, however, that the USC/ND game has become a national event. It's gotten bigger than either ND and USC and it has a momentum that keeps it going. I think ND,as a flailing independent that is losing it's relevance, needs that game a LOT more than USC these days.

While I think the U/BYU game has been that way for the past 17 years, I am told by BYU fans that there was no rivalry before that. I'm guessing the nation would not be upset if it were to end.

While th genesis of The SC ND game is open to debate, the scheduling is not...ND plays in LA in November for one simple reason: warm weather. I don't know if there is anything magic about them playing in Novemeber in LA other than that it had always been that way. That is also why SC doesnt go to Sotuh Bend in November. Too cold. Given th combined history of the two teams, th late season matchup generated lots of pub because often so much is/was at stake when they played each other.

I have posted about this before, but any notion that one side needs that game more than the other is false. Both schools relish the chance to play each other. When SC was down for more than a decade, ND didn't dream of cutting them from the schedule. and the Irish took their lumps for the better part of a decade recently (no thanks to you, rojo...catch the dang ball!). SC fans would sooner lose the UCLA game than the Notre Dame game. SC fans respect the Irish. There is zero respect for fucla. None, zilch. A win over ND, even in their darkest hours, still means a great deal, and a trip to that hallowed ground is incomparable.

I think there is a similar vibe between Y and U, just on a much smaller scale. Prior to the 90s, there was zero respect for Utah football, and really there was no reason for any. This is probably what fuels Utah fans hatred of BYU. But over the last 15 years, the Utes have not only earned respect, they have basically run up,seized it, and beat Y fan over the head with it. And that is what likely fuels BYU fans hatred of Utah. Both sides feel like they have lost something...BYU has lost that unquestioned dominance it once enjoyed over Utah, and Utah lost the majority of the past 40 years losing to BYU (this no longer, of course). As such, this whole pretending to not care, and asking for 2 for 1, and all that other crap....it is just that...crap. There is nothing in the State of Utah that means more to pretty much everyone in the state than that annual matchup.

The one thing I don't get is the huge to do about when the game is played. In that, I really don't care. Am I the only one? What difference does it make?

[shoganai]

What benefits are there to beating BYU that supersede anything Utah would get by winning its remaining 12 games? Fine, maybe a BYU loss would keep Utah out of the BCS title game, but knowing your sentiments about Utah, the idea of Utah ever going 11-1 again is something you'd bet everything you own against ever happening again.

What benefits are there to beating Utah that supersede anything BYU would get by winning its remaining 11-12 games? Fine, maybe a Utah loss would keep BYU out of the BCS title game, but knowing your sentiments about BYU, the idea of BYU ever playing in a national championship game again is something you'd bet everything you own against ever happening again.