Big 10 expansion talk heating up

[SeattleUte]

Sorry to keep flogging this thing, but Ray Ratto’s column in this morning’s SF Chronicle is the first local mention of this discussion that I’ve read in quite awhile. Ratto is the Chron’s principal football analyst, and he looks at things purely from a sports and rivalry angle, not as a social or political commentator. Thus, he doesn’t address the religion issue or the fig leaves of Sunday play and research.

Viewed solely from the perspective of sports and rivalries, he’s absolutely correct—BYU and Utah are the best, if not only, choice for expansion. The PAC-10 is comprised of five intense, local rivalries, in most cases dating back over 100 years. Utah and Colorado lack such a relationship, and one can’t simply create a rivalry suddenly out of thin air. When was the last time Utah even played Colorado, much less cared about the Buffs? And while Colorado has some quality teams, BYU athletics are superior to Colorado’s.

Utah should want BYU as its PAC-10 rival, if for no other reason that it gives Utah fans (who are a close second to BYU’s as the oddest and dorkiest fan base in the nation (a fact I cherish, not lament)) cover when the gentiles start mocking Mormondom. “No, you’re confusing us with those dweebs from Provo. By comparison we’re positively cosmopolitan.” That would be utter nonsense, of course, as it would be uttered by fans of a school whose president, head coach and predominant religion of its fanbase are all active LDS, but if it helps them feel better about themselves, I say have at it.

Will it happen? Almost certainly not, but for all the wrong reasons.

I have no quibble with this post. I also love the fig leaf turn of prhase. It's exactly right. lol

[LA Ute]

Sorry to keep flogging this thing, but Ray Ratto’s column in this morning’s SF Chronicle is the first local mention of this discussion that I’ve read in quite awhile. Ratto is the Chron’s principal football analyst, and he looks at things purely from a sports and rivalry angle, not as a social or political commentator. Thus, he doesn’t address the religion issue or the fig leaves of Sunday play and research.

Viewed solely from the perspective of sports and rivalries, he’s absolutely correct—BYU and Utah are the best, if not only, choice for expansion. The PAC-10 is comprised of five intense, local rivalries, in most cases dating back over 100 years. Utah and Colorado lack such a relationship, and one can’t simply create a rivalry suddenly out of thin air. When was the last time Utah even played Colorado, much less cared about the Buffs? And while Colorado has some quality teams, BYU athletics are superior to Colorado’s.

Utah should want BYU as its PAC-10 rival, if for no other reason that it gives Utah fans (who are a close second to BYU’s as the oddest and dorkiest fan base in the nation (a fact I cherish, not lament)) cover when the gentiles start mocking Mormondom. “No, you’re confusing us with those dweebs from Provo. By comparison we’re positively cosmopolitan.” That would be utter nonsense, of course, as it would be uttered by fans of a school whose president, head coach and predominant religion of its fanbase are all active LDS, but if it helps them feel better about themselves, I say have at it.

Will it happen? Almost certainly not, but for all the wrong reasons.

I agree with this. The PAC is a collection of natural rivalries. Utah-BYU is the obvious fit, just as Arizona-Arizona State were. I wish Sunday play and anti-religious school bias were not factors.

[il Padrino Ute]

I said it gives them to the Pac 10.

Yes, you did say that. But we both know that you believe that as well.

[woot]

We can agree to disagree. I think this is nonsense. At some point words have to mean something.

Of course. I'm not saying that "bigotry" actually means "ice cream". I'm saying that the fact of the matter is that no dictionary can dictate what things are deserving of respect. Ultimately, the meaning of bigotry is intolerance of things that society thinks should be tolerated.

I think the Mormon church is a bigoted organization because they're anti-gay, while others on here would say it's not bigoted to be anti-gay, since homosexuality is an abomination. Many people in the world think it's bigoted to speak out against those who contact the dead on behalf of their grieving widows, while I think the practice is a racket and that its practitioners should be mocked at every opportunity and possibly thrown in jail. Please explain where it is that the dictionary resolves these issues.

[UtahDan]

Of course. I'm not saying that "bigotry" actually means "ice cream". I'm saying that the fact of the matter is that no dictionary can dictate what things are deserving of respect. Ultimately, the meaning of bigotry is intolerance of things that society thinks should be tolerated.

I think the Mormon church is a bigoted organization because they're anti-gay, while others on here would say it's not bigoted to be anti-gay, since homosexuality is an abomination. Many people in the world think it's bigoted to speak out against those who contact the dead on behalf of their grieving widows, while I think the practice is a racket and that its practitioners should be mocked at every opportunity and possibly thrown in jail. Please explain where it is that the dictionary resolves these issues.

I haven't followed your debate with LA, but I think you are right on the money to suggest that "bigot" is something that is in the eye of the beholder. Or at least it hast to have a reference point to what society believes should be tolerated. To the extend most people agree that something should be tolerated, it is a useful term to describe those who don't. To the extent that we are talking about an area whether there is real disagreement and lack of consensus as to whether something should be tolerated it is just polemics.

Saying that someone is "bigoted" against LDS because they disagree with the church's stand on gay marriage is no more useful than someone saying that LDS are "bigoted" against gay people because they don't want them to marry. Consensus may evolve and crystallize on that issue (as it seems to be) but until it does it is just name calling. Just as one example.

[byu71]

If we use the definition that LA Ute posted:

"a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance"

I can't figure out how you included religion under that umbrella of protected traits without also including things like numerology, crystal healing, or bad grammar. That being the case, either bigotry is basically meaningless, since it's not bad to be bigoted against the belief that the earth is flat, or bigotry remains a useful concept by only applying to the things specifically mentioned in the definition, like racial and ethnic groups.

I maintain that both iPU and SU are correct, and it is not possible to agree on a definition. I remind once again that the dictionary only seeks to reflect common usage; it does not dictate it.

So who gets to define a bigot. That is my question. I know of someone who has accused people of a certain group to be bigots, racists and homophobes.

However, I will come down on your side of this. These people who use those terms reflect common useage amongst liberals and progressives, it does not dictate it. I like that.

[falafel]

I recently heard that the PAC 10 is considering expansion. Does anyone think Utah or BYU would be a good fit? Let's talk about that.

[Color Me Badd Fan]

There are four possible outcomes for BYU and Utah with all of this expansion talk going on with the Pac 10 and Big 10:

1. Nothing happens

2. Utah and Colorado go to the Pac 10 and BYU goes to the Big 12. I think this is the most likely scenario if expansion does happen.

3. Colorado and CSU/Air Force go to the Pac 10 and BYU goes to the Big 12. BTW, the Colorado and Air Force combo would be an intriguing possibility for the Pac 10. The Air Force Academy is very prestigious and there's no shortage of Air Force alums (the branch of the military, not the school) around the country. Air Force also makes a nice traveling partner with Colorado. Then again, no one has been rushing to add Army or Navy to their conference. I think adding CSU is a waste for the Pac 10.

4. Same as #3 above only the Big 10 also picks off Missouri and both BYU and Utah go to the Big 12.

BTW, I don't think the research institution issue really matters all that much. But, the perception of homophobia, quack research and lack of academic freedom does play a big role in making it impossible for BYU to ever be a member of the Pac 10 (well, that and the lack of Sunday play).

[pellegrino]

If what matters is being a research institution, I will readily admit, BYU does not stack up. If what matters is to let kids explore, make mistakes, learn from their mistakes and think outside the box, BYU does not stack up.

This may be silly of me and I know the good thinkers on this board are going to roll their eyes, but I see college as being for the following purposes.

1) to get a degree to get a job
2) to get a degree to go to another school to get an advanced degree to get
a job.

All the other stuff to me is secondary. If I had a knock on BYU it would be their primary job is to keep the kids in the fold and get em married within the faith.

However, as to what I consider the two top things a college is for, BYU stacks up very well.

According to your criteria BYU does an excellent job, but that is a very limited metric for measuring the intellectual activity of a university. When the presidents of the PAC 10 look at their peer institutions their criteria are very different.

As I said before, I think BYU is a fine institution for what it does. It has its limitations and problems, but anyone who suggests that as an institution it is on par with the research schools of the PAC 10 really has no idea what they are they are talking about.

[SeattleUte]

There are four possible outcomes for BYU and Utah with all of this expansion talk going on with the Pac 10 and Big 10:

1. Nothing happens

2. Utah and Colorado go to the Pac 10 and BYU goes to the Big 12. I think this is the most likely scenario if expansion does happen.

3. Colorado and CSU/Air Force go to the Pac 10 and BYU goes to the Big 12. BTW, the Colorado and Air Force combo would be an intriguing possibility for the Pac 10. The Air Force Academy is very prestigious and there's no shortage of Air Force alums (the branch of the military, not the school) around the country. Air Force also makes a nice traveling partner with Colorado. Then again, no one has been rushing to add Army or Navy to their conference. I think adding CSU is a waste for the Pac 10.

4. Same as #3 above only the Big 10 also picks off Missouri and both BYU and Utah go to the Big 12.

Link?

[Color Me Badd Fan]

Link?

http://www.cougaruteforum.com/showpo...&postcount=383

[SeattleUte]

Colin Cowherd is bigoted against BYU and Colorado! MikeWaters is bigoted against the Pac 10!

I haven't read any news reports but Colin Cowherd was on this morning and said that it is long past-due for Pac-10 to expand. That Utah is a no-brainer. He said BYU has "religious issues" "Sunday play." He said he doesn't want "another hippie school" in reference to Colorado. Then said Fresno is a no-go, "nobody wants to stay at the Fresno Ramada." He said he would take Utah and probably BYU because "it is a natural rivalry." But he was clearly lukewarm on BYU.

I think most of us that are BYU fans and have followed conference expansion talk, have long known that it is a long-shot for BYU to be invited to the Pac-10. They are arrogant liberal bitches and sons of bitches, and they see inviting BYU to be about as attractive as inviting Oral Roberts.

[byu71]

Sorry to keep flogging this thing, but Ray Ratto’s column in this morning’s SF Chronicle is the first local mention of this discussion that I’ve read in quite awhile. Ratto is the Chron’s principal football analyst, and he looks at things purely from a sports and rivalry angle, not as a social or political commentator. Thus, he doesn’t address the religion issue or the fig leaves of Sunday play and research.

Viewed solely from the perspective of sports and rivalries, he’s absolutely correct—BYU and Utah are the best, if not only, choice for expansion. The PAC-10 is comprised of five intense, local rivalries, in most cases dating back over 100 years. Utah and Colorado lack such a relationship, and one can’t simply create a rivalry suddenly out of thin air. When was the last time Utah even played Colorado, much less cared about the Buffs? And while Colorado has some quality teams, BYU athletics are superior to Colorado’s.

Utah should want BYU as its PAC-10 rival, if for no other reason that it gives Utah fans (who are a close second to BYU’s as the oddest and dorkiest fan base in the nation (a fact I cherish, not lament)) cover when the gentiles start mocking Mormondom. “No, you’re confusing us with those dweebs from Provo. By comparison we’re positively cosmopolitan.” That would be utter nonsense, of course, as it would be uttered by fans of a school whose president, head coach and predominant religion of its fanbase are all active LDS, but if it helps them feel better about themselves, I say have at it.

Will it happen? Almost certainly not, but for all the wrong reasons.

I still maintain with all the lofty ideals, the lofty principles, the glowing free expression and thinking outside of the box, these University Presidents are just as much whores as those they call whores. It will be about money and BYU is in.

[pellegrino]

BTW, I don't think the research institution issue really matters all that much. But, the perception of homophobia, quack research and lack of academic freedom does play a big role in making it impossible for BYU to ever be a member of the Pac 10 (well, that and the lack of Sunday play).

Don't forget who makes the decision to expand. If they exclude BYU (likeliest scenario) all of those issues and reasons will be couched in the phrase "peer institution."

[UtahDan]

Colin Cowherd is bigoted against BYU and Colorado! MikeWaters is bigoted against the Pac 10!

I don't think the comparison to Oral Roberts is a fair one since Tulsa is so much farther away than Provo.