BYU football and a change of identity

[Borg]

..when it comes to Utah and TCU.

I posted this over on CB and wanted to know what you're thoughts are. (The format had it buried in about 30 minutes and thought it would be a worthwhile conversation over here)

For those smarter than I...what is your opinion on why this would, or would not work regarding BYU's approach to Utah and TCU.

Back in the day, BYU revolutionized the passing game. It became the trademark and identity of BYU football. It seems to me that because this is what built the BYU house of football, BYU is stubbornly bent on maintaining that "identity", namely, the passing game. But, is it in the best interest for BYU to do so?

TCU and Utah defenses have been built specifically to take down and take apart BYU. Their very personnel have been constructed to counter and take away our strongest assets and their efforts are proving fruitful. They have constructed defenses to beat BYU at their own game. Stop the pass, and you stop BYU. They have reduced their defensive 'bulk' and have gone to smaller, faster and quicker defensive lineman....converting running back to blazing fast linebackers or defensive ends, offsetting BYU's girth and size.

Their defensive philosophy is that they will stack the line, bring up their LBers, key the tight end, and play close, man to man on our WR's and dare us to try and pass and beat their suffocating man-on-man coverage. Banking that more often than not, we will not have time to pass, throw it away, bad read, thrown off timing (odds are definitely in their favor for this approach) or for any significant WR routes. And,if we do get a pass off for a completion, it will be for a short gain..and they effectively nullify and stop our offensive philosophy. If we wait for a pass route to develop, then their speedy lineman can get to the QB, pressure and hurry the throw, or have a sack.

Makes total sense to me. The WR's are covered like a blanket for 2-3 seconds. The speedy lineman will give the QB about 2-3 seconds to throw, or sack! The LBers key the tight end for 2-3 seconds, and the LBers are stacked near the line to hopefully stop the run should they do so.

Now, BYU has a tough time recruiting the 5 star, creating seperation type WR's, and we don't get the speedy, make-you-miss, take it to the house type RB's. But, BYU does consistently get, huge lineman, precision route running possession Wr's, good, smart QB's, and big, powerful, fullback type RB's.

The results have been painfully clear though, with BYU's traditional personnel, and unchanging offensive philosophy: TCU and Utah's counter strategy is working very well. When BYU wins one of these matchups, they win a hard fought tussle, eeking out a win due to outstanding key, singularplays and players. If TCU or Utah wins...they blow us out.

To swing the pendulum back in BYU's favor...I wonder if BYU should adopt another identity, and become a BIG 10 type team and just SMASH these smaller, quicker players/teams with shear power, strength and aggression? Just blow things up at the line... power run it right up the middle North and South, off tackle with a 3-4 yard gain every time and a cloud of dust? Use it as a way of creating a time of possession game, power football.

By the 4th quarter, their defense will be so overwhelmed and tired of being on the field, getting blasted by huge lineman, and 240 lb running backs beating on them full speed...that at that point, we can then effectively run at will on them, or pass, or do whatever we want.

Maybe we can once again, use our size advantage for our benefit.

The reason I post this is because looking back over the course of this decade, even in our "dominant" years (2006 & 2007) it took Herculean efforts from some individuals to pull off those victories (Beck, Harline, Brown). Even when Hall beat Utah his first time...it took an amazing 4th and 18 to do it. These numbers are scary....and I don't like the trend.

BYU (win margin marked in a "+" and loss margin marked in "-")

2009 - TCU (-31)
2008 - TCU (-25)
2008 - Utah (-24)
2007 - TCU (+5)
2007 - Utah (+7)
2006 - TCU (+14)
2006 - Utah (+2)
2005 - TCU (-1) OT
2005 - Utah (-7) OT
2004 - Utah (-31)
2003 - Utah (-3)
2002 - Utah (-7)
2001 - Utah (+3)
2000 - Utah (+7)


BYU's average margin of victory over Utah = 5.2
BYU's greatest margin of victory over Utah = 7

BYU's average margin of defeat from Utah = 16.25
BYU's greatest margin of defeat to Utah = 31

BYU's average margin of victory over TCU = 9.5
BYU's greatest margin of victory over TCU = 14

BYU's average margin of defeat from TCU = 19
BYU's greatest margin of defeat to TCU = 31

[jay santos]

Have a lot of offenses been successful against Utah and TCU playing smash mouth football? How do Utah and TCU traditionally rank in terms of rush defense? I don't think you have a good assumption that their defenses were designed specifically to stop the pass.

[LA Ute]

..when it comes to Utah and TCU.

Hey, TCU and Utah are not the only teams BYU has to beat! And Utah's defense seems designed for more than just BYU's passing attack. But what do I know?

[byu71]

Our size advantage? Hasn't Utah put more lineman in the NFL recently than we have. Say over the last 5 years?

[Mormon Red Death]

..when it comes to Utah and TCU.

I posted this over on CB and wanted to know what you're thoughts are. (The format had it buried in about 30 minutes and thought it would be a worthwhile conversation over here)

For those smarter than I...what is your opinion on why this would, or would not work regarding BYU's approach to Utah and TCU.

Back in the day, BYU revolutionized the passing game. It became the trademark and identity of BYU football. It seems to me that because this is what built the BYU house of football, BYU is stubbornly bent on maintaining that "identity", namely, the passing game. But, is it in the best interest for BYU to do so?

TCU and Utah defenses have been built specifically to take down and take apart BYU. Their very personnel have been constructed to counter and take away our strongest assets and their efforts are proving fruitful. They have constructed defenses to beat BYU at their own game. Stop the pass, and you stop BYU. They have reduced their defensive 'bulk' and have gone to smaller, faster and quicker defensive lineman....converting running back to blazing fast linebackers or defensive ends, offsetting BYU's girth and size.

Their defensive philosophy is that they will stack the line, bring up their LBers, key the tight end, and play close, man to man on our WR's and dare us to try and pass and beat their suffocating man-on-man coverage. Banking that more often than not, we will not have time to pass, throw it away, bad read, thrown off timing (odds are definitely in their favor for this approach) or for any significant WR routes. And,if we do get a pass off for a completion, it will be for a short gain..and they effectively nullify and stop our offensive philosophy. If we wait for a pass route to develop, then their speedy lineman can get to the QB, pressure and hurry the throw, or have a sack.

Makes total sense to me. The WR's are covered like a blanket for 2-3 seconds. The speedy lineman will give the QB about 2-3 seconds to throw, or sack! The LBers key the tight end for 2-3 seconds, and the LBers are stacked near the line to hopefully stop the run should they do so.

Now, BYU has a tough time recruiting the 5 star, creating seperation type WR's, and we don't get the speedy, make-you-miss, take it to the house type RB's. But, BYU does consistently get, huge lineman, precision route running possession Wr's, good, smart QB's, and big, powerful, fullback type RB's.

The results have been painfully clear though, with BYU's traditional personnel, and unchanging offensive philosophy: TCU and Utah's counter strategy is working very well. When BYU wins one of these matchups, they win a hard fought tussle, eeking out a win due to outstanding key, singularplays and players. If TCU or Utah wins...they blow us out.

To swing the pendulum back in BYU's favor...I wonder if BYU should adopt another identity, and become a BIG 10 type team and just SMASH these smaller, quicker players/teams with shear power, strength and aggression? Just blow things up at the line... power run it right up the middle North and South, off tackle with a 3-4 yard gain every time and a cloud of dust? Use it as a way of creating a time of possession game, power football.

By the 4th quarter, their defense will be so overwhelmed and tired of being on the field, getting blasted by huge lineman, and 240 lb running backs beating on them full speed...that at that point, we can then effectively run at will on them, or pass, or do whatever we want.

Maybe we can once again, use our size advantage for our benefit.

The reason I post this is because looking back over the course of this decade, even in our "dominant" years (2006 & 2007) it took Herculean efforts from some individuals to pull off those victories (Beck, Harline, Brown). Even when Hall beat Utah his first time...it took an amazing 4th and 18 to do it. These numbers are scary....and I don't like the trend.

BYU (win margin marked in a "+" and loss margin marked in "-")

2009 - TCU (-31)
2008 - TCU (-25)
2008 - Utah (-24)
2007 - TCU (+5)
2007 - Utah (+7)
2006 - TCU (+14)
2006 - Utah (+2)
2005 - TCU (-1) OT
2005 - Utah (+7) OT
2004 - Utah (-31)
2003 - Utah (-3)
2002 - Utah (-7)
2001 - Utah (+3)
2000 - Utah (+7)


BYU's average margin of victory over Utah = 5.2
BYU's greatest margin of victory over Utah = 7

BYU's average margin of defeat from Utah = 16.25
BYU's greatest margin of defeat to Utah = 31

BYU's average margin of victory over TCU = 9.5
BYU's greatest margin of victory over TCU = 14

BYU's average margin of defeat from TCU = 19
BYU's greatest margin of defeat to TCU = 31

Utah won by 7 in 2005

[Fiyero]

Borg your stats are a little off. Utah won the 2005 game.

[Borg]

Our size advantage? Hasn't Utah put more lineman in the NFL recently than we have. Say over the last 5 years?

That seems to be our logic. Bigger equals better. We tend to field huge behemoths...doesn't mean they are NFL caliber...but that's just what we recruit, and develop.

[Indy Coug]

How many national programs thrive using a smashmouth style of football?

[Mr. Crimson]

I actually think this is a hell of an idea...

BYU will always win quite a few games because they simply have better talent than most of the conference. But they are going to struggle with Utah and TCU because both of those schools have speed, which kills BYU when they are trying to run the type of offense they do.

I believe BYU will win just as many games with any type of offense. So why not do essentially what Ron McBride did. Get physical. Run the ball, shorten the game, keep your damn defense off of the field. Keep it close and give yourself a shot at the end.

Unless they do something, they will be relegated to 3rd place in this conference.

[WashingtonCoug]

I think BYU is moving to more of a possession offense. That is why they have gone after the taller more physical receivers as well as bigger backs like Vakapuna and Unga. I believe the defense will be faster in the coming years. They may not be lightening fast, but they won't be Matt Bauman molasses slow either.

[Goatnapper'96]

Unless they do something, they will be relegated to 3rd place in this conference.

low-dee, low-dee free at last! The last time my good friend starting making strong predictions about the demise of BYU football, things turned remarkably rather quickly.

I think that TCU is having a great run. I think we have some insight as to why Patterson keeps waiting before making a jump from TCU. KSU put on an absolute full court press last year and he told them no. I personally think it easier to take TCU to a BCS bowl game than KSU, but I think Patterson had some good things going and he knows it. Will it last forever? I doubt it.

Utah was great last year but the biggest difference between Utephoria and Cougar depression is probably not yet playing TCU. I think the Utes play the Frogs much closer than BYU, but the Frogs are good this year.

I liked throwing salt in the wounds of Ute fans during BYU's two year run, and there is reciprocation, but I don't get these we need to make sweeping changes bi polar reactions. It is an issue that TCU had kicked BYU's ass the past two years. The issue, IMO, is probably coaching. BYU is not going to recruit a different type of player and anyone who tells you that the type of player BYU recruits is going to be forever second rate to the Horned Frog or Ute doesn't know very much about college football. BYU needs some better talent on defense, specifically at LB and some better capacity for the coaches to gameplan. It also needs TCU to come back to planet earth.

I will say this much, if TCU is as good every year as they were last year and this year than the will be better than BYU the overwhelming majority of the time. The fact is that legit top 10 teams are going to be better than BYU. I am just pretty confident that while TCU will put many more top 10 teams out in the future, I think they are riding a good high and it is causing many BYU fans to go all bi-polar. I heard the demise once before and believed it then more than I do now. BYU needs to make changes for sure, but I don't think they are as sweeping as many think.

[Goatnapper'96]

I think BYU is moving to more of a possession offense. That is why they have gone after the taller more physical receivers as well as bigger backs like Vakapuna and Unga. I believe the defense will be faster in the coming years. They may not be lightening fast, but they won't be Matt Bauman molasses slow either.

I agree. BYU has always done what they are trying to do and that is counter athletic disadvantages with execution. The issue is that TCU executes better this year. I also think that the defensive talent can be upgraded at LB. I think the DL is good for BYU and I actually think the DBs are above average for BYU. I think that good LBs, or at least the good LBs BYU can normally have, can compensate for poor DBs more than good DBs for BYU can compensate for poor LBs.

[Borg]

Goat- unfortunately, TCU returns many of their starters this year. It appears TCU is on a least a 3 year run. :-(

I hope I'm not bi-polar, but, was just thinking out loud as to how BYU might be able to best counter what TCU and Utah are trying to do to BYU.

The problem I have about this "execute at a higher level" thing (besides the fact that I really don't know what that means in Bronco's context)...is that there just happens to be 11 people on the opposite side of the ball, that might have as good as, or better athletes than BYU does.

AND, they are trying to disrupt and blow up anything BYU is trying to accomplish. So, if you have an equally good athlete faced up on BYU's (or a better athlete)...and their coaches are stressing, training etc. for THEM to execute at a higher level too....THEY will win that battle a majority of the time.

To me (the admittedly uneducated fan)...there seems to be a need to counter what those two specific programs have built to derail our BYU team as it currently is composed of, and our tendency to stick to our gameplan...ball controlled passing. Short to mid range passes. If their gameplan is to build a team that can stop that with speed, man-to-man coverage, and fast lineman/lbers....to blitz and pass rush....if that is their sole plan...what do you do?

Do you stick with the same thing saying "well, let's do it again, and do it better"? To me, it is like that Far Side cartoon of the boy pushing in on the building door that says "Pull".

BYU may one day assemble all the key components to perfectly offset the speedy defenses...but, with missions, people not working out, injuries etc...it could be a long long time.

I think if we don't change at least the gameplan for these two teams...we will lose more than we will win in the next 10 years.

[Fiyero]

Your stats are a bit still off. You updated the 2005 result but not the averages. For example BYU's four wins over Utah by a combined 19 points would be a 4.8, not 5.2.

[OrangeUte]

I hope I'm not bi-polar, but, was just thinking out loud as to how BYU might be able to best counter what TCU and Utah are trying to do to BYU.

i think that's a bit ego-centric to think that whit and patterson have designed their systems merely to stop byu. maybe that's not your overall point, but you seem to think that byu is a behemoth that whit is focused on beating. whit's defense manhandled a big and athletic alabama offense in last year's sugar bowl, so i think whit is probably developing a team based on his overall theory that speed is the most important aspect of a defense.

as for byu's offense, their offense isn't the problem... they use tight ends and crisp-route-running receivers and power backs extremely well. their secondary is what kills them. if they had a defense that caused turnovers and short field situations, rather than getting scored on, byu would be top 15 every single year.

that's my opinion.