Lakers

[landpoke]

That's right. He did get his undergrad at Wyoming, didn't he?

I read somewhere that he doesn't give a dime to Wyoming, although he gives millions to SC, where he received 2 degrees, including his PhD, and also served on the chemistry faculty.

That is incorrect and damn straight to hell whatever idiot wrote such blatant lies.

He's established a chemistry lecture series at UW and he's a lifetime member of the UW Alumni Association. I also hear he gives significant amounts to the university that he prefers to not have publicized. He's humble that way.

[TripletDaddy]

Start rooting for the Lakers. Or relocate your ball club to a major market.

Correct. It is the location, plus success breeding success.

JohnnyLingo doesn't research his facts, which is probably something he is used to getting away with at lower-tier college publications.

Kareem specifically asked to come to LA because of his deep ties there from his ucla days.

Kobe specifically asked to play for the Lakers.

The Lakers picked up Worthy in a deal similar to Magic. They held a #1 pick from a trade in 79 season with Cleveland. Cleveland finished the 81 season with the worst record, the LA held the top pick in the draft the next year. I believe it is the first and only time an NBA champion had the #1 pick in the draft.

Anyway, as much as JohnnyLingo wants someone to subscribe to his conspiracy theory, the facts don't point to a single problem. In fact, they seem to support the notion that the Lakers have generally had strong General Managers, a desireable location, a desireable tradition, and an attractive fanbase that brings players in from all over. Also, a heck of a lot of luck has played a part. If Cleveland wins a few more games that year, we don't wind up with James Worthy.

[TripletDaddy]

and he's a lifetime member of the UW Alumni Association.

Isn't this an automatic membership for any graduate willing to display their degree somewhere in public view? A cell or garage wall would be acceptable, as well.

I also hear he gives significant amounts to the university that he prefers to not have publicized. He's humble that way.

You could be right. That would explain the top notch facilities!

[cougjunkie]

Correct. It is the location, plus success breeding success.

JohnnyLingo doesn't research his facts, which is probably something he is used to getting away with at lower-tier college publications.

Kareem specifically asked to come to LA because of his deep ties there from his ucla days.

Kobe specifically asked to play for the Lakers.

The Lakers picked up Worthy in a deal similar to Magic. They held a #1 pick from a trade in 79 season with Cleveland. Cleveland finished the 81 season with the worst record, the LA held the top pick in the draft the next year. I believe it is the first and only time an NBA champion had the #1 pick in the draft.

Anyway, as much as JohnnyLingo wants someone to subscribe to his conspiracy theory, the facts don't point to a single problem. In fact, they seem to support the notion that the Lakers have generally had strong General Managers, a desireable location, a desireable tradition, and an attractive fanbase that brings players in from all over. Also, a heck of a lot of luck has played a part. If Cleveland wins a few more games that year, we don't wind up with James Worthy.

Reminds me of all the conspiracy theorists talking about the Spurs tanking to get Duncan and Pop firing Hill because he knew they had Duncan so he could ride Duncan to a few titles. Hill was fired in the 1996 season after starting the year 3-15. Pop went 17-47 the rest of the way, the year before Duncan joined the team. Also the Spurs finished with the 4th worst record so they still needed a lot of luck to land Duncan. Imagine if they would have drafted 4th Antonio Daniels would not have been the savior.

Also can you really say a team tanked, yes maybe Robinson could have came back and played a few games at the end of the season, but why? You are not going to make the playoffs, let him heal up completely, besides that even if you had Robinson that year, Cadillac Anderson and Carl Herrera both started 55+ games for that team, even with D-rob you are not going anywhere with that supporting cast.

[landpoke]

Isn't this an automatic membership for any graduate willing to display their degree somewhere in public view? A cell or garage wall would be acceptable, as well.



You could be right. That would explain the top notch facilities!

The green eyed monster does not suit you my friend. Not one bit.

(Lifetime membership in the alumni association is around $300.)

[JohnnyLingo]

JohnnyLingo doesn't research his facts, which is probably something he is used to getting away with at lower-tier college publications.

Please point out any factually incorrect statements I made in my treatise.

I appreciate you clarifying the backstory behind the Lakers getting Kareem, Kobe and Worthy. That was part of why I posted in the first place.

Anyway, as much as JohnnyLingo wants someone to subscribe to his conspiracy theory, the facts don't point to a single problem.

Where did I mention a conspiracy? You misinterpret my post... I'm wondering how the Jazz can do the magical things the Laker management has pulled off so well and so consistently.

Let's go over the reasons to which you attribute this success:

strong General Managers,

Obviously the Jazz are not doing so hot here. Should they be actively seeking out a new GM?

a desireable (sic) location,

Well, desirable is in the eye of the beholder. Salt Lake is a great location for certain people, but apparently NBA stars do not find it that appealing. Not much we can do there.

a desireable (sic) tradition,

Well, the Jazz weren't winning championships in the 60's, so not much we can do there, either.

and an attractive fanbase

Do you mean a physically attractive fanbase? Lots of hot women, good-looking guys? Or do you mean a supportive fanbase?

Also, a heck of a lot of luck has played a part. If Cleveland wins a few more games that year, we don't wind up with James Worthy.

Fair enough. Not much of that for Utah in its history, though I suppose drafting Karl and John might be construed as lucky.

[TripletDaddy]

I wasn't meaning either with "attractive fanbase." What I meant was that the fanbase is an attractive selling point to the player, not that the fans individually are attractive people.

A large rabid fanbase in a huge media market leads to endorsements and exposure, which leads to money. In LA, it also has the unique effect of leading to roles in movies, videos, etc.

Luke Walton has a series of local endorsements and speaking engagements that pay him (allegedly) almost $750K a year (one of them for a matress company...Zzzzz). Luke Walton! I don't know if you can get that kind of a deal in a smaller market if you are pimping to 150K people.

Recently, Pau Gasol and Jordan Farmar appeared as basketball players in an episode of the TV show, "Numbers."

The team has a standing open invite to visit the Playboy Mansion (see Bynum's recent ....ahem...rehab session there with one of the bunnies). Shaq has hosted birthday parties there, as well as a massive party during the All-Star Weekend in LA.

Whenever teams roll into town, they walk over and greet Jack and hobnob with other celebs during warmups.

Stuff like that.

LA is a unique market. There is pretty much nothing Utah can do to replicate it, at least not as far as I can tell.

I wasn't kidding when I predicted that LBJ may end up a Laker. Once Kobe is gone, someone is going to have be the new superstar for the Lakers. That is a highly desireable gig.

[HBCoug]

I wasn't meaning either with "attractive fanbase." What I meant was that the fanbase is an attractive selling point to the player, not that the fans individually are attractive people.

A large rabid fanbase in a huge media market leads to endorsements and exposure, which leads to money. In LA, it also has the unique effect of leading to roles in movies, videos, etc.

Luke Walton has a series of local endorsements and speaking engagements that pay him (allegedly) almost $750K a year (one of them for a matress company...Zzzzz). Luke Walton! I don't know if you can get that kind of a deal in a smaller market if you are pimping to 150K people.

Recently, Pau Gasol and Jordan Farmar appeared as basketball players in an episode of the TV show, "Numbers."

The team has a standing open invite to visit the Playboy Mansion (see Bynum's recent ....ahem...rehab session there with one of the bunnies). Shaq has hosted birthday parties there, as well as a massive party during the All-Star Weekend in LA.

Whenever teams roll into town, they walk over and greet Jack and hobnob with other celebs during warmups.

Stuff like that.

LA is a unique market. There is pretty much nothing Utah can do to replicate it, at least not as far as I can tell.

I wasn't kidding when I predicted that LBJ may end up a Laker. Once Kobe is gone, someone is going to have be the new superstar for the Lakers. That is a highly desireable gig.

It's going to be Deron. He's already auditioning for the gig.

[TripletDaddy]

It's going to be Deron. He's already auditioning for the gig.

I know this will kill all the Jazzites here and they will want to rain down fire on me, but Deron is not a good enough all-around player to be the lead dog on the sled. Once Kobe leaves, the Lakers need a superstar that can play a few different positions, command double teams consistently, and have some length.

Deron is a fantastic point guard. But he is the #2 option in a championship puzzle piece.

#1 options are rare, few and far between.

The Celtics lose KG and now how awesome do Paul Pierce and Ray Allen look without him? They might not even make it out of the first round against the Bulls.

LeBron has the star power. He has the game. Players enjoy playing with him. And he definitely has the ability to move the needle. He is a perfect future fit for LA.

[Donuthole]

I know this will kill all the Jazzites here and they will want to rain down fire on me, but Deron is not a good enough all-around player to be the lead dog on the sled. Once Kobe leaves, the Lakers need a superstar that can play a few different positions, command double teams consistently, and have some length.

Deron is a fantastic point guard. But he is the #2 option in a championship puzzle piece.

I agree. He reminds me a lot of Kobe in that respect.

[TripletDaddy]

I agree. He reminds me a lot of Kobe in that respect.

I think Kobe gets his place in NBA lore. If he wants to cement it, he needs to win this one. No more excuses. If he does not win it, then his legacy will be that of second fiddle, and fairly so.

I think there is a reason short point guards have never led a group of ragtags to a championship. Maybe if Deron had the old Bad Boy pistons surrounding him, he would fare better. But if Deron is your best player on the team, how far can you get? Is he going to take over the game and win it all himself in crunch time? Maybe he will show us all this week, I don't know.

[Donuthole]

I think Kobe gets his place in NBA lore. If he wants to cement it, he needs to win this one. No more excuses. If he does not win it, then his legacy will be that of second fiddle, and fairly so.

I think there is a reason short point guards have never led a group of ragtags to a championship. Maybe if Deron had the old Bad Boy pistons surrounding him, he would fare better. But if Deron is your best player on the team, how far can you get? Is he going to take over the game and win it all himself in crunch time? Maybe he will show us all this week, I don't know.

Deron isn't good enough to do it alone. Neither is Kobe. The post-Shaq-pre-Pau Lakers pretty much established that Kobe is much further from Jordan than most Laker fans (and Jordan haters) care to admit. Which is too bad, because not only am I a Jordan hater, but I am a Kobe fan. Kobe can win this year, and he'll go down as the second best SG in the history of the game. But there will always exist that question as to how successful he would or wouldn't have been playing if he wasn't playing alongside one of the preeminent scoring bigs in the game. The only glimpse we got of that Kobe was fairly telling: Lots of stats, not so many wins to show for it.

[MarkGrace]

Nobody can do it alone. Even Jordan had another top 50 player of all-time.

[TripletDaddy]

Deron isn't good enough to do it alone. Neither is Kobe. The post-Shaq-pre-Pau Lakers pretty much established that Kobe is much further from Jordan than most Laker fans (and Jordan haters) care to admit. Which is too bad, because not only am I a Jordan hater, but I am a Kobe fan. Kobe can win this year, and he'll go down as the second best SG in the history of the game. But there will always exist that question as to how successful he would or wouldn't have been playing if he wasn't playing alongside one of the preeminent scoring bigs in the game. The only glimpse we got of that Kobe was fairly telling: Lots of stats, not so many wins to show for it.

I don't subscribe to the Jordan theory that he won it all. He needed some pretty serious help around him to get it done. For the most part, most NBA champs going back 30 years have had 2 or 3 excellent players...all-star if not HOF caliber players on the roster when they won it.

Last year Kobe had Pau, but nobody else. So he gets within 2 games, but not closer. This year, he has his full compliment, which is why I think he will finally get it done.

Laker fans that claim that Kobe is the main reason the Lakers win it all are fooling themselves. If anything, I think the team MVP is Pau, although nobody gets theirs in the Lakers without Kobe drawing doubles and triples, etc. It is still Kobe's team, but he is finally learning to dole out big responsibilities to others. This year has been a sub-par year for Kobe in terms of scoring, but there is chemistry and a commitment to winning. People are not complaining about their roles, they are all focused on winning. They like playing with each other. This was the final piece that Kobe was missing before...get all his teammates onto the same page. Many of the Bulls hated Jordan and thought he was a jerk, but they respected him.

I am also not a huge proponent of "we will never know how good Kobe would be without Shaq," as that isn't really a telling barometer. how good was Magic? I have no clue because he never really played without fewer than 3 HOFs in his starting lineup. How good was Bird? How good was Malone if he didn't have a PG that threw him the ball 30 times a game? Same issue. It is generally a strawman argument thrown out by Laker haters/Celtic haters/etc (not saying you are in that camp). And since it is unanwerable, usually adds little to the discussion.

[Donuthole]

I don't subscribe to the Jordan theory that he won it all. He needed some pretty serious help around him to get it done. For the most part, most NBA champs going back 30 years have had 2 or 3 excellent players...all-star if not HOF caliber players on the roster when they won it.

Last year Kobe had Pau, but nobody else. So he gets within 2 games, but not closer. This year, he has his full compliment, which is why I think he will finally get it done.

Laker fans that claim that Kobe is the main reason the Lakers win it all are fooling themselves. If anything, I think the team MVP is Pau, although nobody gets theirs in the Lakers without Kobe drawing doubles and triples, etc. It is still Kobe's team, but he is finally learning to dole out big responsibilities to others. This year has been a sub-par year for Kobe in terms of scoring, but there is chemistry and a commitment to winning. People are not complaining about their roles, they are all focused on winning. They like playing with each other. This was the final piece that Kobe was missing before...get all his teammates onto the same page. Many of the Bulls hated Jordan and thought he was a jerk, but they respected him.

I am also not a huge proponent of "we will never know how good Kobe would be without Shaq," as that isn't really a telling barometer. how good was Magic? I have no clue because he never really played without fewer than 3 HOFs in his starting lineup. How good was Bird? How good was Malone if he didn't have a PG that threw him the ball 30 times a game? Same issue. It is generally a strawman argument thrown out by Laker haters/Celtic haters/etc (not saying you are in that camp). And since it is unanwerable, usually adds little to the discussion.

Well, except that Kobe was without Shaq/Pau for 3 years. Results? 35 wins, no playoffs. 45 wins, first round loss. 42 wins, first round loss.

You're saying that Deron isn't good enough to do it alone, but then admitting that Kobe isn't either. I'm not sure this strengthens your argument that Deron couldn't be 'that guy' in LA. Because you are essentially admitting that 'that guy' needs a talented group around him to win a title.