NBA Playoffs 2011

[TripletDaddy]

Something similar? Like "I've always thought Chris Paul was the best point guard in the league"?

I don't have a direct link to a quote, but we'll run with Grace saying P-Jax liked DWill more as well.

http://www.cougaruteforum.com/showpost.php?p=480453&postcount=4908

Even haters of all things Utah had Deron ahead of Paul:



We'll see what kind of GM careers Brandon Jennings and Stephen Curry have in 20 years, but as current point guards they both put Deron as the best PG they play against.

I can't wait to see what the Utah Jazz bandwagon looks like in a few years if it already has Kobe, P-Jax, Bucher, Jennings, and Curry riding.

I wonder about the objectivity of any of these quotes. Do you have any quotes from any of these players naming the worst PG in the league? Or are these guys simply being kind after a game or a series?

I don't doubt that the LAL have a great love for Darren. In fact, they probably wish they were playing against him right now.

[MarkGrace]

When did Williams ever lead the Jazz to at least being competitive with a far superior opponent?

Well this series is only 4 games in, so I have no idea what it's going to end up looking like in the end. But 4 games through the first playoff meeting between Jazz and Lakers in the Deron era, the series was tied 2-2 with Deron doing all the playoff heavy lifting as usual (Boozer was busy getting obliterated by the Lakers length -- he shot 40% from the floor in that series). Jazz lost in 6, but Deron went for roughly 22/11.5 on .460/.441/.931 with the Lakers not even acknowledging we had a SG and SF on the floor.

I think Williams could have been taken out of a series if that were the only thing needed to take care of the Jazz. The 07-2010 Jazz were a lot more complete than any of Paul's Hornets' teams.

Meh, this gets said a lot, and sans West I would probably agree. But with him, the teams NO and Utah fielded were pretty similar, and the team that got dusted by the Nuggets had West and was at least comparable to the team Utah put out there against Denver -- especially when Utah was down two starters in that series.

Paul is great, I'm not denying that, but I just don't think an isolated comparison of what Paul and Williams did versus the Lakers is game, set, match in the debate. Match ups are always a big factor in the equation -- sometimes they're in your favor, sometimes they're not. It's no secret that LA's achilles heal the last few years has been fleet-footed PG's, and it's not surprising that Paul is dicing up the Lakers. He's a great player facing a fairly ideal situation in terms of match up.

[Donuthole]

Well this series is only 4 games in, so I have no idea what it's going to end up looking like in the end. But 4 games through the first playoff meeting between Jazz and Lakers in the Deron era, the series was tied 2-2 with Deron doing all the playoff heavy lifting as usual (Boozer was busy getting obliterated by the Lakers length -- he shot 40% from the floor in that series). Jazz lost in 6, but Deron went for roughly 22/11.5 on .460/.441/.931 with the Lakers not even acknowledging we had a SG and SF on the floor.



Meh, this gets said a lot, and sans West I would probably agree. But with him, the teams NO and Utah fielded were pretty similar, and the team that got dusted by the Nuggets had West and was at least comparable to the team Utah put out there against Denver -- especially when Utah was down two starters in that series.

Paul is great, I'm not denying that, but I just don't think an isolated comparison of what Paul and Williams did versus the Lakers says a whole lot. Match ups are always a big factor in the equation, and sometimes they're in your favor. It's no secret that LA's achilles heal the last few years has been fleet-footed PG's, and it's not surprising that Paul is dicing up the Lakers. He's good, and he's also facing a team that has seemed to struggle quite a bit against his type.

Not to mention Kobe is aging in dog years at this point, as since that series against Utah he has played in the finals 3 times plus the Olympics in 2008. He's presently a shadow of the guy who was guarding Deron at crunch time in that series.

[Donuthole]

Well this series is only 4 games in, so I have no idea what it's going to end up looking like in the end. But 4 games through the first playoff meeting between Jazz and Lakers in the Deron era, the series was tied 2-2 with Deron doing all the playoff heavy lifting as usual (Boozer was busy getting obliterated by the Lakers length -- he shot 40% from the floor in that series). Jazz lost in 6, but Deron went for roughly 22/11.5 on .460/.441/.931 with the Lakers not even acknowledging we had a SG and SF on the floor.

Hack.

Yeah, like that series back in 08 when Williams sucked it up to the tune of 23-12-5 against a LAL team which was significantly better than this year's iteration.

[Color Me Badd Fan]

Yeah, like that series back in 08 when Williams sucked it up to the tune of 23-12-5 against a LAL team which was significantly better than this year's iteration.

I don't get the all or nothing thing with Jazz fans as it relates to Williams v. Paul comparisons. I really don't get it now that Williams is not on the Jazz anymore. I never said Williams sucked it up, it's just that Paul is better. Never at any time when the Jazz were playing the Lakers in the playoffs did I think that the Jazz were actually going to win the series. The same can't be said of this series between the Hornets and Lakers.

Of course Kobe is aged and may have a severe problem with his foot and that makes a huge difference with my confidence level. I also seem to remember Williams fading in the closing minutes of these big games while Paul makes huge plays.

[smokymountainrain]

It's cute that you think the hornets might win the series. They have no chance. So actually, yes, the same can be said.

[MarkGrace]

It's cute that you think the hornets might win the series. They have no chance. So actually, yes, the same can be said.

I was just going to say, what about the Hornets current 2-2 looks different from the Jazz 2-2 in that previous series? I haven't thought for a second either team was going to beat the Lakers.

[MarkGrace]

I don't get the all or nothing thing with Jazz fans as it relates to Williams v. Paul comparisons.

I never said Williams sucked it up, it's just that Paul is better.

So far this is the only all or nothing comment that has been made.

[Color Me Badd Fan]

So far this is the only all or nothing comment that has been made.

DHole said "yeah, Williams really sucked it up when he (whatever the stats) against the Lakers." The supposition was that I thought Williams sucked. I never said or inferred that -- however I am saying Paul is better than Williams, period, though Williams is still a very good player. I think in my rankings of the top 20 players from a month or two back, I put Williams above Paul primarily because of Paul's injury problems.

[Color Me Badd Fan]

I was just going to say, what about the Hornets current 2-2 looks different from the Jazz 2-2 in that previous series? I haven't thought for a second either team was going to beat the Lakers.

In three straight postseasons, the Lakers went 12-3 against the Jazz in the postseason. The Jazz didn't win a single game in Los Angeles and in 2008 they never really got close. In the deciding sixth game, the Jazz and Lakers were tied heading into the fourth but the Jazz never had a lead in the last ten minutes.

That was not a memorable series (with the exception of Boozer getting hilariously dominated). This didn't feature a buzzer beating Artest put-back (Phoenix 2010). This didn't feature a buzzer beating Gasol put back (OKC 2010). It wasn't a case of LA barely scraping by.

In contrast, Paul and the Hornets have actually won a game in LA-- something that Williams and the Jazz failed to do in 8 postseason attempts. Another reason I have faith that the Hornets may (but probably won't) beat the Lakers is because they, IMO, appear more capable of making plays down the stretch in the fourth against the Lakers than the Jazz were. While I recall the Jazz shrinking down the stretch, I don't see the same thing with the Hornets.

Nash, Westbrook, Rondo and Paul and their respective teams have given the Lakers more problems than Williams and the Jazz.

[MarkGrace]

DHole said "yeah, Williams really sucked it up when he (whatever the stats) against the Lakers." The supposition was that I thought Williams sucked.

I see. I think that was obviously more DH being a smart ass than any implication you made that Williams sucked.

I never said or inferred that -- however I am saying Paul is better than Williams, period, though Williams is still a very good player.

And you've certainly supported that with evidence of, uh, what was it again?

I think in my rankings of the top 20 players from a month or two back, I put Williams above Paul primarily because of Paul's injury problems.

For my part, I view them as very similar players. I'm not sure I'd rank one over the other. I'm not so much arguing that Deron is better so much as suggesting that Paul is not better. But like I said, it becomes one of those out of sight, out of mind things. Paul's last trip to the playoffs both he and his team got absolutely handled, and then he sat out last year while Deron ripped through the Nugz in six games with an undermanned team and w/o homecourt advantage (and people went wild for his 33/14 masterpiece on the road, much as they have for some of the stellar games Paul has put together). People basically forgot about Paul and all the talk was about how Deron had become the #1. Now Deron's sitting at home and Paul is playing great ball and the conversation flips.

[MarkGrace]

In contrast, Paul and the Hornets have actually won a game in LA-- something that Williams and the Jazz failed to do in 8 postseason attempts. Another reason I have faith that the Hornets may (but probably won't) beat the Lakers is because they, IMO, appear more capable of making plays down the stretch in the fourth against the Lakers than the Jazz were. While I recall the Jazz shrinking down the stretch, I don't see the same thing with the Hornets.

So? And at the same point in the series the Hornets has shown they were capable of going back to NO and immediately losing at home, something the Jazz hadn't done. 2-2 looks the same as 2-2. Neither team had shown enough to make anyone believe they were going to win.

Nash, Westbrook, Rondo and Paul and their respective teams have given the Lakers more problems than Williams and the Jazz.

Rondo's a given, his team was far better than any Jazz team and beat the Lakers. The Suns lost in 6; the Thunders lost in 6; who knows, the Hornets may still lose in 6. I'm glad there were some memorable plays and a clothesline mixed in there, but losing in 6 is losing in 6. None of these is a bigger accomplishment than the other so I'm not sure what you're arguing. I mean it's great that whatever you've done against the Lakers seems to be the ultimate arbiter of success here, but the playoffs are a lot bigger than that. Thus far CP3 has won exactly one playoff series; Deron a few more, as you know. It was playoff play that got you all hot on CP3 to begin with.

[Color Me Badd Fan]

I see. I think that was obviously more DH being a smart ass than any implication you made that Williams sucked.



And you've certainly supported that with evidence of, uh, what was it again?

Every which I spin it for Williams, he never comes out on top.

Cumulatively, Williams hasn't been as good as Paul.

Career Stats:

Paul -- 18.7 pts. 9.9 assists, 4.6 rebounds, 2.4 steals, 2.5 turnovers, .471 FG%, .359 3-point%.
Williams -- 17.2 pts, 9.2 assists, 3.2 rebounds, 1.1 steals, 3.1 turnovers, .463 FG%, .355 3-point%.

Paul scores more, has more assists, rebounds more, commits fewer turnovers is a better defender and shoots the ball better from all over the court.

Before you bitch about mean ol' Jerry holding Deron back his first year, let's just look at each respective player's best season. Paul's best season is pretty clear -- 08-09. Williams' best season is a little more murky so I'll include his best two seasons -- this year and 08-09

Paul -- 22.8 pts, 11 assists, 5.6 rebounds, 2.8 steals, 3 turnovers, .503 FG%, .364 3-point%.

Williams -- 2011 -- 20.1 pts, 10.3 assists, 4.0 rebounds, 1.2 steals, 3.5 turnovers, .441 FG%, .332 3-point %

2009 -- 19.4 pts., 10.7 assists, 2.9 rebounds, 1.1 steals, 3.4 turnovers, .471 FG%, .310 3-point %.

So again, Paul looks better when you look at their stats from this angle. In every category Paul is better.

And as I mentioned before, and this is obviously more subjective, but I think Paul is the better player at the end of the game.

So, I'm trying to figure out what evidence you have that indicates that Williams is the better player. The stats certainly don't bear it out and it's not like Williams has really won anything of note. The only angle you can approach this from is that Paul has the worse injury history and from here on out Williams is probably the better bet. I'm sure many GMs may agree with that assessment. But when these guys are both playing at the top of their games, Paul has been the better player.

[MarkGrace]

So, I'm trying to figure out what evidence you have that indicates that Williams is the better player.

I never said he was. It's mentioned in the same post you cut that quote out of, so I'm not sure how you missed it.

[Donuthole]

Every which I spin it for Williams, he never comes out on top.

Cumulatively, Williams hasn't been as good as Paul.

Career Stats:

Paul -- 18.7 pts. 9.9 assists, 4.6 rebounds, 2.4 steals, 2.5 turnovers, .471 FG%, .359 3-point%.
Williams -- 17.2 pts, 9.2 assists, 3.2 rebounds, 1.1 steals, 3.1 turnovers, .463 FG%, .355 3-point%.

Paul scores more, has more assists, rebounds more, commits fewer turnovers is a better defender and shoots the ball better from all over the court.

Before you bitch about mean ol' Jerry holding Deron back his first year, let's just look at each respective player's best season. Paul's best season is pretty clear -- 08-09. Williams' best season is a little more murky so I'll include his best two seasons -- this year and 08-09

Paul -- 22.8 pts, 11 assists, 5.6 rebounds, 2.8 steals, 3 turnovers, .503 FG%, .364 3-point%.

Williams -- 2011 -- 20.1 pts, 10.3 assists, 4.0 rebounds, 1.2 steals, 3.5 turnovers, .441 FG%, .332 3-point %

2009 -- 19.4 pts., 10.7 assists, 2.9 rebounds, 1.1 steals, 3.4 turnovers, .471 FG%, .310 3-point %.

So again, Paul looks better when you look at their stats from this angle. In every category Paul is better.

And as I mentioned before, and this is obviously more subjective, but I think Paul is the better player at the end of the game.

So, I'm trying to figure out what evidence you have that indicates that Williams is the better player. The stats certainly don't bear it out and it's not like Williams has really won anything of note. The only angle you can approach this from is that Paul has the worse injury history and from here on out Williams is probably the better bet. I'm sure many GMs may agree with that assessment. But when these guys are both playing at the top of their games, Paul has been the better player.

Deron has won 4 playoff series, and reached the conference finals. Paul has won 1 playoff series. In fact, Deron has played in exactly twice as many playoff series as Paul, and has won as many as Paul has played in. Your previous arguments preclude you from arguing about quality of teammates and quality of opponents because you won't accept the argument that coaching style impacted each players' statistical productivity.

This started as a "what has Deron ever done against quality competition" but you now want to morph it into a stat exhibition. Debating playoff success bring this back to the implication that Paul is better in more important games (where your argument first started). Clearly he's not, because, he has hardly any playoff success.

FTR, I admit that this is somewhat of a ridiculous argument. It is, however, no more ridiculous than claiming Paul is undeniably better than Deron based on 4 first-round playoff games against the Lakers.