Lance Armstrong cheated per ex teammate

[TripletDaddy]

The more I think about this stuff, the more I think that theres no difference between Lance doping without getting caught and Stockton's dirty screens

You probably should think about it some more.

[ERCougar]

You probably should think about it some more.

Until I come to the conclusion that Jordan obviously doped, so the Jazz have their ring? Excellent!

[TripletDaddy]

Until I come to the conclusion that Jordan obviously doped, so the Jazz have their ring? Excellent!

So you are in agreement that Armstrong doped and was a cheater but are using Jordan as a strawman. That works for me, as long as everyone admits that Armstrong doped to win those 7 straight races.

Also, why would anyone suspect MJ of doping simply for beating the Jazz? lol.

[ERCougar]

So you are in agreement that Armstrong doped and was a cheater but are using Jordan as a strawman. That works for me, as long as everyone admits that Armstrong doped to win those 7 straight races.

Also, why would anyone suspect MJ of doping simply for beating the Jazz? lol.

Reread. I suspect Armstrong doped, and have strongly suspected that since his response to landis' accusations. I don't know that though, and until there is proof, I think you have to call him clean. 'Hes too good' isn't a reason. Otherwise, I'll be erasing Jordan (and Kobe) from the record books and the Jazz have their championship.

[TripletDaddy]

Reread. I suspect Armstrong doped, and have strongly suspected that since his response to landis' accusations. I don't know that though, and until there is proof, I think you have to call him clean. 'Hes too good' isn't a reason. Otherwise, I'll be erasing Jordan (and Kobe) from the record books and the Jazz have their championship.

Except Jordan and Kobe arent at risk of being erased.

Lance is gonzo.

The argument isnt that he is too good. It is that he is doing things that are freakishly superhuman that have never been done before, and smashing previous records by a mile.

Jordan isnt even a blip in this discussion, nor is Kobe. Russel won 11 titles (in an admittedly watered down league), Kareem also won 6, many have won 5, and Dominique and Dr. J were dunking like him before he was. Jordan was great, but what he accomplished in basketball isnt close what Armstrong cheated to accomplish in the TdF. Lots of people won as much as MJ, if not more or almost as much. Nobody in the history of our awesome solar system has come close to winning 7 straight tours. And there is probably a reason for that.

Who knows about Phelps, but the suspicion is definitely there. The culture of modern athletics is very permissive of cheating.

Jazz winning a championship by default. I agree that that would probably be the only way it would ever happen.

[RC Vikings]

Two years ago LA came out of a three year break and finished third in the TDF as a 37 year old guy. NOBODY else would even attempt something like this and I don't think he would be stupid enough to try it dirty. Is their a chance that LA was a extraordinary athlete?

[ERCougar]

The argument isnt that he is too good. It is that he is doing things that are freakishly superhuman that have never been done before, and smashing previous records by a mile..

So the argument is really 'he's too awesome'. Gotcha.

[TripletDaddy]

Two years ago LA came out of a three year break and finished third in the TDF as a 37 year old guy. NOBODY else would even attempt something like this and I don't think he would be stupid enough to try it dirty. Is their a chance that LA was a extraordinary athlete?

of course. i think this is where all this hyper-sensitivity is coming from. I dont think anyone thinks that Lance isnt a world class competitor. He isn't accused of not being a good cyclist.

He is accused of being a doper (which is being shown to be true slowly but surely) and a huge liar (which, by definition, will follow in lockstep with the first accusation). These accusations do not preclude Lance from being great. It already seems to be in agreement that he is a jerk and that he also has done some really great things for the sport of cycling as well as for cancer awareness.

Lance's arc is similar to Bonds. Bonds was already a great player before he started doping. But that doesn't mean that he didn't start doping and that his record is a fraud.

[TripletDaddy]

So the argument is really 'he's too awesome'. Gotcha.

Im not arguing that he is awesome at all. I think he is a huge liar and a cheater. I dont find that to be awesome, nor impressive.

[SteelBlue]

Two years ago LA came out of a three year break and finished third in the TDF as a 37 year old guy. NOBODY else would even attempt something like this and I don't think he would be stupid enough to try it dirty. Is their a chance that LA was a extraordinary athlete?

I think they developed an undetectable method when done correctly. I think we'll someday learn that Bruyneel was the key. It wouldn't surprise me at all to learn Lance was doping in that last good tour.

It's not hard to read between the lines on the Hincapie thing. The leak to 60 minutes comes from Nowitzki, I don't know how he gets away with that stuff, but he does and it was well timed to coincide with the ToC. George saying "I never talked to 60 minutes" is just a clever way to avoid mentioning who he did talk to, namely a grand jury. It will all come out soon and this time I think it's clearly over for Lance.

[ERCougar]

Im not arguing that he is awesome at all. I think he is a huge liar and a cheater. I dont find that to be awesome, nor impressive.

So to summarize...Lance needed to be a nice guy and not the win the seventh Tour to be 'impressive' or legit.

Sounds like a great way to evaluate athletes!

Just to address your obvious 'no, he needed not to cheat' answer--you still don't know he cheated. If he gets caught, then I'm on board with discounting his legacy--just like I'm on board with Stockton getting called for an illegal pick. But we're not there yet, and your reason for suspicion seems to be that he won one tour too many and that he was a jerk.

[TripletDaddy]

So to summarize...Lance needed to be a nice guy and not the win the seventh Tour to be 'impressive' or legit.

Sounds like a great way to evaluate athletes!

Just to address your obvious 'no, he needed not to cheat' answer--you still don't know he cheated. If he gets caught, then I'm on board with discounting his legacy--just like I'm on board with Stockton getting called for an illegal pick. But we're not there yet, and your reason for suspicion seems to be that he won one tour too many and that he was a jerk.

not one tour too many. Like 5 or 6 too many. If he won one tour, nobody would be talking about this guy right now. He won way too many to not raise suspicion. He kept company with dopers, his teammates doped, he has been accused of doping, the sport is filled with doping, so it seems pretty fair to assume that he was a doper. That he was a jerk is only an interesting aside.

If he gets caught, who cares if you are on board? By then, what choice do you have but to be on board?

when was stockton called for an illegal pick against the Bulls? you keep referencing this and I dont remember any such call being a determining factor in those Finals matchups.

[ERCougar]

not one tour too many. Like 5 or 6 too many. If he won one tour, nobody would be talking about this guy right now. He won way too many to not raise suspicion. He kept company with dopers, his teammates doped, he has been accused of doping, the sport is filled with doping, so it seems pretty fair to assume that he was a doper. That he was a jerk is only an interesting aside.

If he gets caught, who cares if you are on board? By then, what choice do you have but to be on board?

when was stockton called for an illegal pick against the Bulls? you keep referencing this and I dont remember any such call being a determining factor in those Finals matchups.

The point of the Stockton example is that you do what you can get away with to win. If the enforcement were sufficiently lax, then it would be stupid not to get the best advantage you can, particularly when everyone else is doing it. It's not cheating any more than setting an illegal but uncalled pick is cheating.

[TripletDaddy]

The point of the Stockton example is that you do what you can get away with to win. If the enforcement were sufficiently lax, then it would be stupid not to get the best advantage you can, particularly when everyone else is doing it. It's not cheating any more than setting an illegal but uncalled pick is cheating.

that is a great way to evaluate athletes!

[Jeff Lebowski]

Wow. Sometimes it really is that easy.