2021-2022 basketball season

[tooblue]

I want to challenge your assertion "clearly the 6 seed was a huge reach by the committee". BYU lost 7 games this year:

• 3x vs. Gonzaga - currently in the Final Four and looking like one of the most complete and best college basketball teams in modern memory. BYU has played them about as well as any other team in the country this season.
• UCLA - also currently in the Final Four having beat Michigan State at the same seed, the Abilene Christian "gimme", Alabama at #2, and Michigan at #1. UCLA was clearly underseeded in the tourney.
• USC - Made it to the Elite 8 as a 6 seed, losing to Gonzaga
• Pepperdine on the road - Malibu is BYU's Achilles heel and has been since joining the WCC, long before this season and long before Pope
• Boise State at home - Boise was not horrible but BYU should not have lost this game

So BYU had a grand total of 2 losses this year to teams that weren't Final Four or Elite 8 teams. I don't think it's clear at all that a 6 seed was a huge reach by the committee.

I think it was a reach in recognition of the team performance over the past two seasons. The committee had a tough job this year. The seedings were off all over the place. They did get one thing right though—no Duke was a great decision.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Harding had a very disappointing year. He seemed to get worse as the season went on. Furthermore, you would normally expect a player to get better each year. Harding is basically the same player (or worse) that he was as a freshman. I have zero problem with him transferring.

Jesse Wade never showed anything with the minutes he had.

Lee is a bit of a head-scratcher because he has definitely shown improvement year after year, but no way is he better than Harward, Haarms, Lohner. I can see why his minutes went down.

Also, 3 players going into the portal is not an anomaly at all in the current basketball landscape. If Pope were a stock, I would be buying it.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Had he gone to Harding at all in the Gonzaga game, they may have been able to preserve that lead and close out better than they did. Knell hit a few shots, Few adjusted and they locked him down. Knell is a turnover waiting to happen and a defensive liability against more athletic wings. In the first round he went to Harding too late against UCLA. BYU did not have enough time to close the gap.

He has done well in totality against lessor or equal competition.

Huh? Turnovers per minute played for Knell = 0.037. That is the lowest on the team for players who have played in at least 10 games.

Maybe try again.

[tooblue]

Harding had a very disappointing year. He seemed to get worse as the season went on. Furthermore, you would normally expect a player to get better each year. Harding is basically the same player (or worse) that he was as a freshman. I have zero problem with him transferring.

Jesse Wade never showed anything with the minutes he had.

Lee is a bit of a head-scratcher because he has definitely shown improvement year after year, but no way is he better than Harward, Haarms, Lohner. I can see why his minutes went down.

Also, 3 players going into the portal is not an anomaly at all in the current basketball landscape. If Pope were a stock, I would be buying it.

It is four players, one the head coach recruited, transferred with him to BYU and who that same coach called a future All American.

Knell has fewer turnovers because he disappears on the wing and can't get open to get the ball in the first place. He can't get in the lane and can't make plays, and can only hit threes if he is Ward ball open. Between Harding and Knell, the coaching staff went to Harding (possibly reluctantly) to play defence in important situations in all but the third Gonzaga game. That's all the evidence I need.

[Jeff Lebowski]

It is four players, one the head coach recruited, transferred with him to BYU and who that same coach called a future All American.

Coaches hyping their players. Imagine that.

Knell has fewer turnovers because he disappears on the wing and can't get open to get the ball in the first place. He can't get in the lane and can't make plays, and can only hit threes if he is Ward ball open.

You called him a turnover machine. Now you are explaining why he doesn't make turnovers? OK.

Between Harding and Knell, the coaching staff went to Harding (possibly reluctantly) to play defence in important situations in all but the third Gonzaga game. That's all the evidence I need.

Now you are deferring to the judgement of the coaching staff to bolster your argument against .... (checks notes) ... the judgement of the coaching staff? Lol.

[Goatnapper'96]

It is four players, one the head coach recruited, transferred with him to BYU and who that same coach called a future All American.

Knell has fewer turnovers because he disappears on the wing and can't get open to get the ball in the first place. He can't get in the lane and can't make plays, and can only hit threes if he is Ward ball open. Between Harding and Knell, the coaching staff went to Harding (possibly reluctantly) to play defence in important situations in all but the third Gonzaga game. That's all the evidence I need.

I do agree that Pope's hyperbole has the potential to burn him- or at least give reason to people to wonder about his substance. He is gregarious and silver tongued. If he were into the Church and could tamp it down a bit he would be great beautiful people potential. However, lucky for us sports fans I think he views the Church as a religion and a great lifestyle to live moreso than the community he wishes to spend all his time. There is a risk that he is a charlatan and that we go from performing marriages to having jilted wives criticize you on social media. Time will tell if there is genuine substance to him or if he truly a used car salesman. I get the concerns that he is all flash and not substance.

He is also smart and, I think, really ambitious.

He clearly did great work developing Toolsen at UVU. Time will tell if he can get the same growth out of Johnson and Knell. I would hope he can develop George and Lohner into much better players for next year. Last year his silver tongue facilitated bringing in more transfers that were the core of another successful team- next year I think his challenge is going to be to develop some of these talented players on his current roster.

I tend to be in his camp-he wins and builds wherever he goes. But on the other hand I was in his camp from the beginning and couldn't understand why there were BYU fans who wanted Madsen instead of him.

[Joe Public]

You called him a turnover machine. Now you are explaining why he doesn't make turnovers? OK.

To be fair, he said a "turnover waiting to happen." I guess it just hasn't happened yet?

[tooblue]

Coaches hyping their players. Imagine that.



You called him a turnover machine. Now you are explaining why he doesn't make turnovers? OK.



Now you are deferring to the judgement of the coaching staff to bolster your argument against .... (checks notes) ... the judgement of the coaching staff? Lol.

If you got a guy on the floor who makes it feel like you are playing 4 against 5 you are at a disadvantage and that's when turnovers happen. It kills the offence not to mention what it does to the defence.

My argument is that Harding is a better player. The evidence is that in the overwhelming number of games he was on the floor at the end of games where you needed players on the floor that gave you the best chance to win. Whether he was put on the floor reluctantly is on the coaching staff and could explain why the player may choose to move on. Because the facts are Harding was on the floor at crucial times over two seasons while the other player was sitting on the bench. Yet, Harding now wants to transfer!? Yup, I'm not yet sold on Pope.

Further, you are just arguing to argue.

[tooblue]

To be fair, he said a "turnover waiting to happen." I guess it just hasn't happened yet?

That stat was an individual stat, yet there are four other guys on the floor. So, his in-effectiveness has no consequences and doesn't contribute to turnovers, regardless to whom the stat guys assign them?

lol

[Pelado]

I don't believe he will be a flop, but the concern is the belief that BYU's ceiling is Gonzaga or even San Diego State. The reality, in part due to missions, is BYU's ceiling is Loyola Chicago or Davidson et al. I don't have a problem with mining the transfer portal. As you aptly pointed out it is the norm. But losing four character guys, two of which who were significant contributors over the past two years is alarming.

Losing four character guys is a problem if they are the best players at their positions or are otherwise irreplaceable. Lee, though he has improved a ton since his freshman season, didn't deserve the minutes he got this season.

Wade is too small to get a shot off against taller defenders (like Radar O"Reilly) and isn't quick enough to get to the rim. Additionally, he is a defensive liability against most any opponent since he lacks height and length. I don't mind having him as a walk-on but understand if he wants a bigger on-court (and possible scholarship) role.

Harding obviously has skill. He is a plus defender and, prior to this season, showed he could both shoot and drive the baseline for either a layup or a pass to the far corner. I was expecting to see him progress this season, expanding his offensive production while maintaining his defensive prowess. Instead, he regressed. He passed up a lot of open threes. He missed a lot more of the shots he did take as compared to prior seasons. He was timid and tentative on the floor. Is that what he is going to be going forward? If so, then I'd rather give those minutes to Spencer Johnson. They have similar size, similar levels of athleticism, and similar defensive presence. Spencer is a better offensive threat as a spot-up shooter, as well as on his pull-up jumper. If George can continue to develop and understand the offensive and defensive systems (and stay out of foul trouble), I see a lot of those minutes going to him.

It is demonstrative of the almost petty or petulant nature of his in-game coaching style. Certainly, petty or petulant are not the correct tems, but too often when a player doesn't perform and can't adjust they go to the bench and stay there. That is NBA behaviour and this isn't the NBA.

Had he gone to Harding at all in the Gonzaga game, they may have been able to preserve that lead and close out better than they did. Knell hit a few shots, Few adjusted and they locked him down. Knell is a turnover waiting to happen and a defensive liability against more athletic wings. In the first round he went to Harding too late against UCLA. BYU did not have enough time to close the gap.

He has done well in totality against lessor or equal competition.

Had Harding been in more against Gonzaga, it might have limited Gonzaga's scoring more, but it also would have made it harder for the other four guys on the floor for BYU to score since Gonzaga could sag off Harding more than they could against Knell. The main problem BYU had against Gonzaga is that they have better players pretty much 1-5. That BYU had a lead at all was a credit to Pope and the players. Only one team this season has played Gonzaga closer than BYU did.

Having Harding guarding Juzang definitely took Juzang out of his game - but it didn't stop UCLA's other guys from scoring. It's hard to close a gap when you can't get any defensive stops.

I don't see Pope's in-game coaching style as either petty or petulant. I see a coach who has produced two very good but very different teams. He has brought in talented guys (or convinced talented guys to return), some of which wouldn't normally have considered BYU.

As to BYU's ceiling, I think all of us here are familiar with BYU's basketball history - often good enough to get to the Dance, rarely good enough to advance. Last year's team, when fully healthy, could definitely have made some noise in the tournament. This year's team could have won a game or two if they had a different draw. Since the tournament expanded to 64 teams in 1985, BYU has been seeded better than 8th only five times (six if we include last year's team that would have been seeded around 4 or 5). So in Pope's first two seasons, he has produced two of the six best teams at BYU of the last 36 years.

After all the production BYU lost after last season, how can you not be impressed with what Pope and the team accomplished this season? Instead, you seem really hung up that, if he had only played Harding more minutes, he could have knocked off a couple of Final Four teams.

[tooblue]

I do agree that Pope's hyperbole has the potential to burn him- or at least give reason to people to wonder about his substance. He is gregarious and silver tongued. If he were into the Church and could tamp it down a bit he would be great beautiful people potential. However, lucky for us sports fans I think he views the Church as a religion and a great lifestyle to live moreso than the community he wishes to spend all his time. There is a risk that he is a charlatan and that we go from performing marriages to having jilted wives criticize you on social media. Time will tell if there is genuine substance to him or if he truly a used car salesman. I get the concerns that he is all flash and not substance.

He is also smart and, I think, really ambitious.

He clearly did great work developing Toolsen at UVU. Time will tell if he can get the same growth out of Johnson and Knell. I would hope he can develop George and Lohner into much better players for next year. Last year his silver tongue facilitated bringing in more transfers that were the core of another successful team- next year I think his challenge is going to be to develop some of these talented players on his current roster.

I tend to be in his camp-he wins and builds wherever he goes. But on the other hand I was in his camp from the beginning and couldn't understand why there were BYU fans who wanted Madsen instead of him.

I was squarely in the Pope camp, I am just not yet sold on him. The balancing act he faces at BYU is like no place else. The Lee situation has to sting all parties equally. I don't think he is a charlatan by any stretch, but I do think he is petulant and impatient with his players—all D1 coaches are, and in fairness they kind of have to be that way. Their jobs are tenuous. But I think he really overdid it this year—he drank a little too much cool aide due to the success he had with another coaches players the previous season which carried over to this season.

Neither Knell or Johnson have the potential of Toolson. Harding doesn't either, but he is the better basketball player overall of the three. Losing him doesn't make sense.

It is clear Pope is turning to the potential of his youthful front line going into next season. That leaves Lee an odd man out (and maybe even Harward as the season progresses). I don't think Barcello will be back, and don't think he should come back. It's time for him to move on. As for Averette, I think it's time for him to move on as well. Pope now has some work to do. He is good at finding gems in the transfer portal. But that is not a recipe for long-term success.

[tooblue]

Losing four character guys is a problem if they are the best players at their positions or are otherwise irreplaceable. Lee, though he has improved a ton since his freshman season, didn't deserve the minutes he got this season.

Wade is too small to get a shot off against taller defenders (like Radar O"Reilly) and isn't quick enough to get to the rim. Additionally, he is a defensive liability against most any opponent since he lacks height and length. I don't mind having him as a walk-on but understand if he wants a bigger on-court (and possible scholarship) role.

Harding obviously has skill. He is a plus defender and, prior to this season, showed he could both shoot and drive the baseline for either a layup or a pass to the far corner. I was expecting to see him progress this season, expanding his offensive production while maintaining his defensive prowess. Instead, he regressed. He passed up a lot of open threes. He missed a lot more of the shots he did take as compared to prior seasons. He was timid and tentative on the floor. Is that what he is going to be going forward? If so, then I'd rather give those minutes to Spencer Johnson. They have similar size, similar levels of athleticism, and similar defensive presence. Spencer is a better offensive threat as a spot-up shooter, as well as on his pull-up jumper. If George can continue to develop and understand the offensive and defensive systems (and stay out of foul trouble), I see a lot of those minutes going to him.



Had Harding been in more against Gonzaga, it might have limited Gonzaga's scoring more, but it also would have made it harder for the other four guys on the floor for BYU to score since Gonzaga could sag off Harding more than they could against Knell. The main problem BYU had against Gonzaga is that they have better players pretty much 1-5. That BYU had a lead at all was a credit to Pope and the players. Only one team this season has played Gonzaga closer than BYU did.

Having Harding guarding Juzang definitely took Juzang out of his game - but it didn't stop UCLA's other guys from scoring. It's hard to close a gap when you can't get any defensive stops.

I don't see Pope's in-game coaching style as either petty or petulant. I see a coach who has produced two very good but very different teams. He has brought in talented guys (or convinced talented guys to return), some of which wouldn't normally have considered BYU.

As to BYU's ceiling, I think all of us here are familiar with BYU's basketball history - often good enough to get to the Dance, rarely good enough to advance. Last year's team, when fully healthy, could definitely have made some noise in the tournament. This year's team could have won a game or two if they had a different draw. Since the tournament expanded to 64 teams in 1985, BYU has been seeded better than 8th only five times (six if we include last year's team that would have been seeded around 4 or 5). So in Pope's first two seasons, he has produced two of the six best teams at BYU of the last 36 years.

After all the production BYU lost after last season, how can you not be impressed with what Pope and the team accomplished this season? Instead, you seem really hung up that, if he had only played Harding more minutes, he could have knocked off a couple of Final Four teams.

I am not as high on Johnson. I think we saw him hit his ceiling this season. George is and always will be a gamble. As such, why not put more energy in to a multi-year contributor with a higher ceiling than both Johnson or Knell? The lack of confidence in Harding's offensive game can in part be blamed on the coaching staff. You give up on a player and he tends to give up on himself, and I think that is what happened. That's sets off alarm bells because despite the offensive struggles Harding was outstanding on defence and was still a good player maker. His potential transfer doesn't compute. Every team needs that kind of multi-year experience.

Pope didn't produce those teams, Rose did and Pope was their coach. I give him a lot of credit for the many wins, but watching every game the past two seasons there is a clear pattern in his coaching style. He stubbornly holds to his game plan often until it is too late, and if players don't perform they get banished to the bench. That works in the NBA but not in college. It is a similar in style to Larry K.

[Pelado]

If you got a guy on the floor who makes it feel like you are playing 4 against 5 you are at a disadvantage and that's when turnovers happen. It kills the offence not to mention what it does to the defence.

My argument is that Harding is a better player. The evidence is that in the overwhelming number of games he was on the floor at the end of games where you needed players on the floor that gave you the best chance to win. Whether he was put on the floor reluctantly is on the coaching staff and could explain why the player may choose to move on. Because the facts are Harding was on the floor at crucial times over two seasons while the other player was sitting on the bench. Yet, Harding now wants to transfer!? Yup, I'm not yet sold on Pope.

Further, you are just arguing to argue.

Playing four on five - like having a guy who passes up open threes or, who when he does shoot, does so at a worse rate than he used to? And at a worse rate than any other player at his position?

Harding - 40.3% FG, 31.9% 3PFG
Knell - 46.7% FG, 45.3% 3PFG
Johnson - 45.9% FG, 40.7% 3PFG

[tooblue]

Playing four on five - like having a guy who passes up open threes or, who when he does shoot, does so at a worse rate than he used to? And at a worse rate than any other player at his position?

Harding - 40.3% FG, 31.9% 3PFG
Knell - 46.7% FG, 45.3% 3PFG
Johnson - 45.9% FG, 40.7% 3PFG

Can the lack of confidence be placed exclusively on the player? I thought that's why you practice, and had assistants who could work individually with players? So, in other words he regressed instead of improved under this coaching staff, which doesn't bode well for either Knell or Johnson going forward does it?

[LiveCoug]

Don't want to say the portal transfer guys are dead weight, but they weren't the cream of the crop. I'm guessing Pope had a say in some of those transfers.

I think Barcello comes back and we get 2 guys in the transfer portal. There are like 3 Wasatch Academy guys in the portal and I bet we get one of em (Mike Saunders, I'd guess)