When Goatnapper discusses this BYU as...

[Blueintheface]

[QUOTE=Mr. Crimson;269586]Boylen has faced a far greater challenge to get there[.QUOTE]

What the Hell are you talking about? What greater challenge? You do realize that Cleveland won 9 games the year prior to Rose taking over, right? How much of a challenge SHOULD it be to take a historically very good program like Utah's and turn it into the Air Force Academy? If history is any indicator you'll be back playing at a high level in the future but comparing Rose and Boylen just makes you look myopic and silly.

[Mr. Crimson]

Rose won a conference title in his second year as well.

I agree with you that Boylen's inability to get Utah into many NCAA tourneys is definitely a point for him over Rose's first round losses! Got us on that won, big fella!

Goat you know that Boylen has had the chance to get Utah into 2 tourney's and got them into one, just like Rose did.

[Mr. Crimson]

[quote=Blueintheface;269613]

Boylen has faced a far greater challenge to get there[.QUOTE]

What the Hell are you talking about? What greater challenge? You do realize that Cleveland won 9 games the year prior to Rose taking over, right? How much of a challenge SHOULD it be to take a historically very good program like Utah's and turn it into the Air Force Academy? If history is any indicator you'll be back playing at a high level in the future but comparing Rose and Boylen just makes you look myopic and silly.

First its not like BYU has a nothing hoops history. Second, Ray Giacolletti's last season he won 11 games. Combined with the scholarship balance being totally screwed up and the massive overturn of recruits going all the way back to Majerus meant Boylen was stuck.

Second Rose was on the BYU staff right. Utah essentially had 4 coaches in 5 years from Majerus to Kerry Rupp to Giac to Boylen.

So I ask what is your problem in me saying Boylen has done a good job so far.

[Goatnapper'96]

Goat you know that Boylen has had the chance to get Utah into 2 tourney's and got them into one, just like Rose did.

I kind of was assuming we could plan that year 3 is not going to finish with the Utes in the NCAA tourney.

Then it would be Boylen is batting .333 when Rose would have been .666 at the similar point in his career. I can accept that Rose inherited a much better situation.

[Mr. Crimson]

Utah is 259th most experienced team out of 347. BYU is 210th. So BYU is somewhat less stunningly young.

http://kenpom.com/height.php?s=ExpRank

BYU returned four of its five top scorers
Utah lost four of its five top scorers

[Mr. Crimson]

I kind of was assuming we could plan that year 3 is not going to finish with the Utes in the NCAA tourney.

Then it would be Boylen is batting .333 when Rose would have been .666 at the similar point in his career. I can accept that Rose inherited a much better situation.

Its amazing this whole thing started because I made a small joke to you.

For the record, I think Dave Rose is the best coach in the conference. I'm going to end my battle here and move on now.

[Blueintheface]

[quote=Mr. Crimson;269627]

So I ask what is your problem in me saying Boylen has done a good job so far.

Ah, but you didn't just suggest that he "has done a good job so far". You suggested he was on par with Rose and you are wrong, wrong, wrong. Historically speaking BYU is Urban's 2003 team but let's fastforward 7 years and see where we are. If BYU has maintained it like Utah's gridders have than I think we see a more permanent shift in basketball power.

[Goatnapper'96]

[quote=Mr. Crimson;269627]

First its not like BYU has a nothing hoops history. Second, Ray Giacolletti's last season he won 11 games. Combined with the scholarship balance being totally screwed up and the massive overturn of recruits going all the way back to Majerus meant Boylen was stuck.

Second Rose was on the BYU staff right. Utah essentially had 4 coaches in 5 years from Majerus to Kerry Rupp to Giac to Boylen.

So I ask what is your problem in me saying Boylen has done a good job so far.

Time will tell if Boylen can take a shit sandwich and turn it into excellence. It isn't a huge challenge to take crap, especially if the crap is the hoops program at a school like Utah, and make it above average. The next step is to take it to good. I think Dave Rose is doing that this year for BYU. Time will tell. Cleveland took BYU and made it into above average but was unable to get over that hump. The only indicators with Boylen are his young recruits and I struggle seeing anything concrete that would inspire in me the confidence that he can take a shit sandwich to excellent. In all honesty next year will give more light. This year just leaves me leaning that it isn't real likely he is going to make Utah the cream de la cream of the conference. I think if he were that good as a coach in year 3 he would have this team more consistently closer to the top tier of the MWC. The inconsistency might be an experience issue with the players or it might be a hallmark of the Boylen era. Next year will give us more info as to where he is going to go.

[Goatnapper'96]

Its amazing this whole thing started because I made a small joke to you.

For the record, I think Dave Rose is the best coach in the conference. I'm going to end my battle here and move on now.

You will never surrender my friend!

I also think Rose is a better coach, but I think if Utah is properly leveraged it should allow a less capable coach to win more frequently.

[Flattop]

Cleveland took a program that was worse than the one Giacoletti left and made it above average winning 20+ games 4 times. Rose took that program and elevated it in conference play and won 3 conference titles (2 outright, 1 shared).

I think Rose inherited a better program than Boylen did, which allowed him to improve from 9 wins to 20. Boylen improved from Giac's 11 wins to 18. In his 2nd year, Rose won 25 games and an outright conference regular season title. Boylen won 24 games in his 2nd season, won a shared conference regular season title, and the conference tournament.

Rose kept it going in year three while Boylen has taken a step backward. I don't know how many key players Rose lost between his 2nd and 3rd year. Boylen lost 3 starters and the first two off the bench. Considering what Utah lost, a step back was probably unavoidable.

Right now, BYU has what might be the best PG in the conference. Utah has Drca.

[TheBYUGuy]

However if you want to get technical, Boylen was able to his first title in his 2nd season and it took Rose another season. So under your logic, Point Boylen.

As has been pointed out already, you are just plain wrong on this. There is no room for debate on the facts. Rose had outright MWC titles in years 2 and 3. Boylen had a shared title in year 2 and will not get one in year 3. Your fact checker sucks.

So I've tried to be polite here, but just stop poking.

Let me get this straight--you create the thread by taking a dig at BYU. Then you ask us to show you how Dave Rose has accomplished more than Boylen, so I present the facts. And here you are telling me you're being "polite" and I'm the one "poking"?

Look, I'm not trying to piss you off to the extent that you'll hunt me down and call my boss, but I know you can think better than what you've shown here.

[Mr. Crimson]

Let me get this straight--you create the thread by taking a dig at BYU. Then you ask us to show you how Dave Rose has accomplished more than Boylen, so I present the facts. And here you are telling me you're being "polite" and I'm the one "poking"?

Look, I'm not trying to piss you off to the extent that you'll hunt me down and call my boss, but I know you can think better than what you've shown here.

Ok I give. This started as a small joke at your inability to win in the post season mostly meant at the Napper.

Boylen sucks Rose Rules and Steve Fischer still seems to do a remarkable job considering he died 3 years ago.

[jay santos]

Ok I give. This started as a small joke at your inability to win in the post season mostly meant at the Napper.

Boylen sucks Rose Rules and Steve Fischer still seems to do a remarkable job considering he died 3 years ago.

Maybe you could send him a boardmail next time you have a "small joke" about BYU, if you can't handle responses from BYU fans.

[Mr. Crimson]

Maybe you could send him a boardmail next time you have a "small joke" about BYU, if you can't handle responses from BYU fans.

Or you could just quit acting like a douche.

[DU Ute]

Or you could just quit acting like a douche.

We've had our occasional tiffs on Utefans, but I love you Mr. Crimson.